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Steelhead

 

Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

staff notations of cante types? 
Estimated (estimados) flamenco experts -- While there are hundreds of transcriptions of guitar falsetas around, I am finding very few staff notations of cante, such as could visually illustrate and specify, e.g., the malagueña de Mellizo, those of Chacon, the soleás de Alcalá, the granaina vs media granaina etc etc. For some of us such notations could be very useful. Is there some publication or site that I am unaware of? In my 3-4 dozen books on flamenco (including, e.g., Molina & Mairena) there is almost nothing of this sort.

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2018 20:00:48
 
Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
Here is one book:

https://www.davidleiva.net/libros/camar%C3%B3n/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2018 21:39:38
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
That would be amazing to have.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 0:06:11
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelhead

Estimated (estimados) flamenco experts -- While there are hundreds of transcriptions of guitar falsetas around, I am finding very few staff notations of cante, such as could visually illustrate and specify, e.g., the malagueña de Mellizo, those of Chacon, the soleás de Alcalá, the granaina vs media granaina etc etc. For some of us such notations could be very useful. Is there some publication or site that I am unaware of? In my 3-4 dozen books on flamenco (including, e.g., Molina & Mairena) there is almost nothing of this sort.



I saw one guitar review article that had solea cante and guitar in score form. By Carol Whitney from the 1970’s. You see it takes a special knowledge of both systems to do this correctly and I find that to be quite rare. Considering the volumes written by Flamenco “experts” on cante, I find the absense of scores with cante melodies ridiculous. I am tempted to do some of the cantes you describe for comparison myself. Finding time to do it is another story.

Out of curiosity, if I where to take on such a project in near future, what would be more useful? The melody scored in absolute key as it sounds on recording (as if you could play the melody on piano along with audio recording), or, the melody scored in the key the guitar is playing in with or without capo? Or is it necessary to see both?

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 11:28:24
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
Leiva's four Volumes of "método de cante y baile" have staff notation of cante and letras for all major palos.

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 16:04:47
 
Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
Well I would love to have the Camaron book too, and tried to order it yesterday with no luck. Deflamenco web site not working for me.

I am a bit concerned about the accuracy though. I have seen a video Leiva did regarding cante accompaniment, where he's playing along with famous recordings, and it wasn't pretty. The timing of the playing was off. Anyone have any of his transcriptions? A good transcriber doesn't need to be a great player......
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 16:24:23
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Out of curiosity, if I where to take on such a project in near future, what would be more useful? The melody scored in absolute key as it sounds on recording (as if you could play the melody on piano along with audio recording), or, the melody scored in the key the guitar is playing in with or without capo? Or is it necessary to see both?


Considering the audience for this - if it is for guitarists so we can understand accompaniment better - it seems that scoring it the way the guitar is scored is best - i.e. E Phrygian. etc. as if there is no capo, regardless of capo position. I think this also allows for immediate comparisons of melodic lines between different singers even if they sing at different capo positions.

EDIT: Like this - from Leiva's book (the sample)?



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 16:37:45
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Mark2) 
quote:

Anyone have any of his transcriptions?


I have his Sabicas & Escudero transcriptions: they’re excellent.

You can find my review on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/review/RZAVQQU52MFRM/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00H4DS2L0
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 16:57:18
 
Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
Thanks Paul!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 17:01:06
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

[…] what would be more useful? The melody scored in absolute key as it sounds on recording (as if you could play the melody on piano along with audio recording), or, the melody scored in the key the guitar is playing in with or without capo?


You can find melody scored in absolute key in Lola Fernández’s books. No doubt it’s useful to pianists, but I find it a pain.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 17:02:57
 
joselito_fletan

 

Posts: 187
Joined: Jan. 24 2017
 

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
This idea has also been brewing inside me for a while now. I have fiddled around with tone generators and created some melodies. I put it aside and started working on transcribing/engraving memorized falsetas.

Pondering on how to create a useful tool used for practicing cante without breaking any artists copyrights, I had thought of using tone generation for popular melodies ie. Alegrias (tiri ti tran, tran tran, etc...) and layering dynamically on top of a guitar chord chart and a compas, so the guitarist can follow along.

Kinda have to tie 3 things together and work in unison, a chord chart/TAB a metronome with a beat and a melodie generated by tone all this presented in a usable interface.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 2 2018 21:07:26
 
timoteo

 

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

I saw one guitar review article that had solea cante and guitar in score form. By Carol Whitney from the 1970’s. You see it takes a special knowledge of both systems to do this correctly and I find that to be quite rare.


Re: Carol Whitney,
The University of Washington, near me, has a large archive of live Flamenco recordings made in Spain in the 60's and 70's. Some of these were recorded by Carol Whitney. Also, one of our local specialty guitar shops, Rosewood Guitars, was selling her 60's (?) Conde a few weeks ago, but I don't see it on their site currently.

Anyway, the archive has a lot of interesting stuff. See http://guides.lib.uw.edu/research/ethnoarchive_yonge

While there are some samples on the web, most can only be accessed in person. I'm willing to make the trip for any foro member who is interested in specific pieces ... just contact me privately.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2018 2:12:56
 
timoteo

 

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:


Out of curiosity, if I where to take on such a project in near future, what would be more useful? The melody scored in absolute key as it sounds on recording (as if you could play the melody on piano along with audio recording), or, the melody scored in the key the guitar is playing in with or without capo? Or is it necessary to see both?


I think this would be great! I have often read information of the following type on the foro:

"Alegrias for example has 3 main melody types, one starting on the 4th/3rd of the scale in the low octave (camaron used to do this octave higher), the other starting on tonic and coming down to the third, and the final one starting on the 5th and going up above and back down to tonic."

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=224007&appid=&p=&mpage=1&tmode=&smode=&s=#224172

(Yes, that's you Ricardo ...)

And while this sort of information is very valuable and hard to find anywhere else, it would be more useful to me to have explicit transcriptions of examples these three main types.

I would suggest transcribing relative to the capo. Alegrias in E or A or C, for example, Bulerias por medio, etc. Same as you would do if you were transcribing the guitar part.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2018 2:29:32
 
Steelhead

 

Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
 

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
Thanks for these tips; I have ordered the Leiva books, except for V. 3, which seems to be unavailable. I agree with Ricardo that it is better--or would certainly be better for me--to see everything transposed as if in first position, no cejilla, even if some original recording is in a different key.

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Steelhead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2018 14:18:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Out of curiosity, if I where to take on such a project in near future, what would be more useful? The melody scored in absolute key as it sounds on recording (as if you could play the melody on piano along with audio recording), or, the melody scored in the key the guitar is playing in with or without capo? Or is it necessary to see both?


Considering the audience for this - if it is for guitarists so we can understand accompaniment better - it seems that scoring it the way the guitar is scored is best - i.e. E Phrygian. etc. as if there is no capo, regardless of capo position. I think this also allows for immediate comparisons of melodic lines between different singers even if they sing at different capo positions.

EDIT: Like this - from Leiva's book (the sample)?




You see that kind of thing is more the general skeleton outline of the sung melody. I have seen worse of course, but the actual delivery is usually different in terms of timing and other details.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2018 10:37:11
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

You see that kind of thing is more the general skeleton outline of the sung melody. I have seen worse of course, but the actual delivery is usually different in terms of timing and other details.


Is that important? Surely, exact timing and ornamentation will vary from singer to singer. If you notate all the details, will you not risk losing sight of the basic melody? Which is the point, after all…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2018 16:45:52
 
Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Steelhead) 
It would be nice if, for example, the Camaron book, which is supposed to be transcribed from specific recordings, is more detailed than a basic outline of the melody. If your going to sell a product that represents itself as a transcription of the melody as sung on a specific recording, it should be that. I've ordered the book so I guess I'll see.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2018 16:51:58
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
You see that kind of thing is more the general skeleton outline of the sung melody. I have seen worse of course, but the actual delivery is usually different in terms of timing and other details.


Yes, probably (I was only pointing out that he did it relative to the guitar notation), but having even just that provides so much to analyze and explore - when you compare with what the guitar is doing - which hopefully enhances a guitarist's understanding of accompaniment.

Like the push-pull between the guitarist and the singer in terms of who gets to a new pitch when.The singer gets to F but the guitarist already was there hinting at it with the F as part of the E9 chord, destabilizing that sung E a full measure before the singer's change. Then later on the singer gets to a new stable place - the A - and the guitarist one pulse later with the Am chord. (or is this wrong because the delivery's timing was different, so none of these inferences are 'real', i.e. something to learn from?)

Come to think of it, an accurate notation of the actual singing should help even more with that sort of thing - especially if one starts seeing patterns in the push-pull with different singers and guitarists.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2018 17:02:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

or is this wrong because the delivery's timing was different, so none of these inferences are 'real', i.e. something to learn from?)

We need to hear it. Here is carol Whitney’s score of live performance of Juan Talega and Eduardo Marlena, same style solea.



Starts at :53


Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2018 20:30:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: staff notations of cante types? (in reply to Paul Magnussen) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

You see that kind of thing is more the general skeleton outline of the sung melody. I have seen worse of course, but the actual delivery is usually different in terms of timing and other details.


Is that important? Surely, exact timing and ornamentation will vary from singer to singer. If you notate all the details, will you not risk losing sight of the basic melody? Which is the point, after all…



Depends on the singer. For example I noticed Chacon repeating melodies note for note even with different lyrics, so in some cases the exact details are super important.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2018 20:34:45
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