question to people born in flamenco families about singing

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marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

question to people born in flamenco ...

hello, I couldn't find this conversation but please link me if it's already here.
I would like to ask the people who have been playing flamenco guitar since a very young age, especially those of you in andalucia who are in families that have been flamenco for many years.

are you able to talk about and try to describe some of the process of how a child guitarist is taught to accompany cante? maybe it is necessary to understand how to sing the melodies and compas (which would explain why so many outsiders like myself find it incredibly difficult to find the chords) what sorts of things would you do to practice playing for a singer and learn how to pick the right chord.

I have met people who do not play flamenco but are great at accompanying other styles, and when they listen to solo compas they can find chords that fit the singing but I have noticed they usually select different ones than what happens in flamenco, so I am not convined that learning to accompany jazz singers for example would be of much benefit.

sorry I don't have a clear question in this post, my goal is to read other people's experiences of learning accompaniment. (for background I am a beginner who has played at dance schools for 10 years but only gets to work with a singer a few times a year. I can sometimes get it right on the fly but not very often, so I usually rely on listening to a recording of someone else accompanying the letras then I can hear it clearly. I do not know how to begin learning to accompany on the fly. buleria for example I will get wrong 80% of the time

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 1:49:32

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: question to people born in flame... (in reply to marduk)

I am not in the category of people you mentioned and I am no expert at accompanying the cante, though I would like to be. But I will offer my opinion: I think the way the people you mentioned learn is by watching and listening to other guitarists, who are expert, do it. That's why they learn to select certain chords and not others. So without much access to singers and accompanists, the best way to learn may be to play along with recordings by experts.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 2:59:39

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: question to people born in flame... (in reply to marduk)

quote:

I do not know how to begin learning to accompany on the fly. buleria for example I will get wrong 80% of the time

Not sure who you are accompanying but what I found early on working with singers was that “good” singers were much more clear than others, and by that I mean there were some singers that sang in a traditional way, others in a modern way taking from camaroneros and such, and guys that just yelled letras where needed for dancers. The more traditional singers were way easier to accompany. Their voices “lead” me around as guitarist, it’s very clear and no rehearsals needed. But a lot of singers were not good like that, not well versed in the traditional way to sing and required me to memorize what they wanted me to do. It was a weird feeling early on because one guy I had no clue what he would sing and it all came out on stage perfectly. Next guy and outside of the rehearsed numbers, anything the singer would improvise was a mess on my part, couldn’t get any correct chord. Now some guys will sing duquende or whatever and if by chance I was familiar of course it worked, but it was by chance.

Over the years I tried learning to sing some stuff myself and realized it mostly comes down to how good is the compas of the singer, and how precise they can sing notes in a scale. Now I can tell in the ay ay ay warm up with what I’m dealing with. 10 years ago I was in Spain and Diego agujetas comes into a bar. I bought him a drink and he sang for me and I accompanied him for like 2 or 3 hours straight. I knew none of his repertoire but he sang in such a clear way... even singing in the half compas and stuff was like butter. He seemed happy, all the aficionados liked it, and I learned tons. One guy was filming, a younger singer. Gerardo invited this guy to sing a mini concert, maybe 3 or 4 songs, and chose me to accompany him. I remember he was so excited to work with me and later showed a clip he filmed from that night, he really loved how I played for Diego. So he wanted to practice... that already made me uncomfortable. Honestly we got together and he started basic fandango de huelva. It was sucking and I missed a tono he wanted in that simple form. He looked so frustrated and confused as to how I could play so perfect for the other guy and not for him? And I was embarrassed too, so we started working out his cantes.

Back stage before show time he was warming up with me, his wife a dancer there doing palmas... suddenly she stops him and starts singing the same thing he was to correct him! He tried again, and she stopped him again and this went on for a while. I realized that this “problem” of accompanying was not my fault at all.... some singers simply are much better, more knowledgeable than others. It was never meant to be such a difficult art form as it sometimes seems. I suggest trying to learn from an advanced singer only, one that doesn’t only copy modern recordings, one that doesn’t sing the same letra only over and over. And don’t take it too hard if some mediocre guy puts you down for missing a chord in his off track singing. Just do the best you can for them, learn from it, and move on to the next project with hopefully better artists.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2019 13:34:46

devilhand

Posts: 1602
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: question to people born in flame... (in reply to Ricardo)

I thought you accompanied him.

https://loscaminosdelcante.com/2018/08/07/palabra-de-agujetas-hoy-en-el-xii-ciclo-cine-y-flamenco-del-cadf/

Who is Diego Agujetas? The younger brother of Antonio Agujetas?

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2019 13:29:39

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: question to people born in flame... (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

I thought you accompanied him.

https://loscaminosdelcante.com/2018/08/07/palabra-de-agujetas-hoy-en-el-xii-ciclo-cine-y-flamenco-del-cadf/

Who is Diego Agujetas? The younger brother of Antonio Agujetas?

Diego is of 9 siblings in the famous Agujetas family. Probably the second best singer...better than Manuel at bulerias for sure.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2019 16:03:52

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: question to people born in flame... (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Who is Diego Agujetas? The younger brother of Antonio Agujetas?

Diego is son of Agujetas el Viejo, brother of Manuel, uncle of Antonio.

Has a new CD out with Pepe del Morao. I have an old one of him with Parrilla.

https://www.elflamencovive.com/english/diego-agujetas-pepe-del-morao-cd.html

https://www.elflamencovive.com/spanish/diego-agujetas.html?___from_store=english

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2019 16:30:10

devilhand

Posts: 1602
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: question to people born in flame... (in reply to mark indigo)

@mark indigo Thanks for the information.

I read Agujetas are not really OK when it comes to doing Flamenco with payos. I don't know who in the family started it. I wonder if this silly thing still exists in flamenco today.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2019 17:15:15

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: question to people born in flame... (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

I read Agujetas are not really OK when it comes to doing Flamenco with payos. I don't know who in the family started it. I wonder if this silly thing still exists in flamenco today.

you better ask Ricardo, he played with Diego

Manuel performed and recorded with Manolo Sanlucar and David Serva in the 70's, both payos (and one of them extranjero!). Also a reunion of sanlucar and manuel from later years.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2019 17:38:57

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: question to people born in flame... (in reply to devilhand)

That is not true. Gary Hayes played for him/them a lot. I remember an interview where he said he was treated like family.

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

@mark indigo Thanks for the information.

I read Agujetas are not really OK when it comes to doing Flamenco with payos. I don't know who in the family started it. I wonder if this silly thing still exists in flamenco today.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2019 21:11:55