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My perception of the man is that he was a jerk and although he did help to elevate the status of the guitar, it probably would have happened anyway through people like Williams.
Segovia offered to help Barrios and even asked to have copies of La Catedral and some other works. He sadly never incorporated them. Why wouldn't he help Barrios? Hmmm?
Segovia never hated flamenco until... He was involved in the Concurso of 1922. He had already met Barrios by this time. Interestingly Ramon Montoya was embarking on an international career as a soloist and Segovia's disdain for flamenco seems to pick up steam at this time. Coincidence? In light of his treatment of Barrios and Montoya one might think he was a self-aggrandizing jerk...at least I do. Hmmm?
Classical guitarist Chapdelaine has been skewered for supposedly being disrespectful to the maestro at the USC (UCLA? I forget) masterclass but I want to know what you think after reading this article. Hmmm?
Thoughts?
My point is not to attack the man (I already know what I think of him). I have always been a Williams fan and I think with his repertoire and catalog he is in contention for being the most important classical guitarist of the twentieth century.
Since I always like to answer opinion questions...
I've been infected with the guitar virus now for about two years. yesterday I enjoyed listenening to the works of some old spanish composers and i really enjoyed it.. Just the things i read about Segovia's personality keep me away from hearing his music.
I will listen to his music one day for sure. A good musicion doesn't need to be a great guy, but in this stage of my life this guy has my negative prejudice...
Just the things i read about Segovia's personality keep me away from hearing his music.
Flamencito, if you haven't heard Segovia yet you shouldn't avoid listening to him just because of his bad reputation as a person.
Apart from that, I don't believe it is correct to judge a person we didn't even met. And people shouldn't always believe in this kind of accusations. Perhaps John Williams exagerated, maybe there was some kind of misunderstanding between the two or perhaps Segovia wasn't in fact good to be around. We don't know. Only the ones that have really met him know that.
But if Segovia really wasn't respectful to his students I wouldn't be surprised. Who hasn't got a teacher that only accepted things in a certain way, even if they weren't the most correct? I had plenty of those teachers, some were good teachers others not so much. I had a physics teacher that only allowed her students to solve a particular problem in a unique way. So what? In the exam we solved it the way she wanted. The next year we had a different physics teacher that alowed us to solve the same problem with any method we wanted, as long as it was correct. Now that I'm in university, 90% of my professors are even more stingy than the first physics teacher I mencioned. And I suspect that when I get a job it will be even worse. Thats just the way the World is.
Summarizing, Segovia was a guitarist and that's how we should judge him. His students were grown men that should understand that some people only want things in their own way. They were there to learn from the master and, as a result, they had to put up with him. After they were done with their studies they could play however they wanted.
His students were grown men that should understand that some people only want things in their own way. They were there to learn from the master and, as a result, they had to put up with him. After they were done with their studies they could play however they wanted.
That is true, but one of the duties of the teacher is not to enforce his or her interpretations on a student, but to teach the students how to think and use the music the way they need to make it work.
Often a student can recover from an overbearing teacher who dictates a certain way of doing things in music, but unless that serves the greater purpose of teaching the student to be independent it can often create mannerisms in interpretation that can be very difficult to recover from. Not to mention in extreme cases mental abuse. I think that is what Williams is getting at. He's hinting that Segovia's style of pedagogy was just very old world.
You can go on YouTube to see master classes with Segovia teaching and see what you think for yourself, yeah or nay.
I watch the cello master classes with Casals, Tortelier, Greenhouse...even if you don't like Segovia you'll go away with something. He won't be there to berate you, his role is passive on You tube
That is true, but one of the duties of the teacher is not to enforce his or her interpretations on a student, but to teach the students how to think and use the music the way they need to make it work.
Often a student can recover from an overbearing teacher who dictates a certain way of doing things in music, but unless that serves the greater purpose of teaching the student to be independent it can often create mannerisms in interpretation that can be very difficult to recover from. Not to mention in extreme cases mental abuse. I think that is what Williams is getting at. He's hinting that Segovia's style of pedagogy was just very old world.
I absolutely agree with everything you said. Maybe I gave the wrong impression that I believed in such methods of teaching. I don't, it's precisely the opposite. What I wanted to say is that people like that exist and in many cases we have to coexist with them. It's not easy, but we either have to learn how to deal with this complicated individuals or simply pretend it is nothing and just put up with them. Sometimes it is the price to pay when you want to learn from one of the best.
If we judged musicians based on their personality we wouldn't be left with many.
Performance and ego are dangerously related, it's a rare breed that manages to keep them separated.
Segovia isn't one of my favorites, although he did have his moments. As far as Williams sparking the guitar renaissance - I doubt it. Williams became famous mostly because Segovia took him under his wing. Williams is a fine player, but as far as creativity goes.. Have you heard his band - Sky? Segovia popularized Villa-Lobos, Ponce, Tedesco, Torroba, and inspired countless other composers to write 'serious' music for what had been considered a folk instrument.
Given the choice, who would you rather see - A Spaniard on his culture's iconic instrument, or some Aussie bloke with huge square glasses and a funny hairstyle?
Personally, I prefer the Brit with the crazy eyebrows.
You would think Segovia would have done more for Barrios, the composer Correct me if I'm wrong But other than those early warbly recordings Barrios made his music lay Dormant until Williams re discovered it In The city I live in a guitarists transcribed some of those recordings and gave them to Williams in the 60's No reason to disbelieve it....they are life long friends. (He also has a nice collection of guitars..2 fletas being part of it. As I understand it Segovia heard Barrios...gave him some nylon strings to replace the steel... A bit of correspondence then nothing.. The barrios recordings are mind numbing virtuosic..raw..shredding... A very different aesthetic to Segovia... An eccentricity that Segovia lacked...( I still enjoy listening to Segovia after some 30 years ) My thought is that as far as the European concert stage went Segovia felt threatened.....or Barrios South American 'ginga' would override his work to the concert audience...become more popular. ( a recent double billing i saw of Manuel Barreuco eand Yamandu Costa put me in a similar comparison as far as extremes go )
Segovia seems a bit of a knob as far his arrogance and misogyny go..but you get that...he probably did stifle their creativity...seems they all found their way eventually.... But I guess Charles Mingus was a heroin using pimp....it doesn't affect my listening experience..,
Figure neither Williams or Segovia will have the lasting legacy established by such player/composers as Sor, Guiliani, Paganini, Villa Lobos, Barrios., Brouwer etc....
Always keen to find out more about the Segovia - Barrios parallel...seems a bit of a mystery..
One other question that seems unanswered but has annoyed me.. Was the third part (Allegro) la cathedral recorded in Bbminor. Down tuned? Or mechanical/recording fault? Anyone know?
But I'll tell you what, he ain't no Jascha Heifitz on the Chaconne. Although in the end it's not worth the time spent hating him when he did do things worth commending.
When I was a kid I got into listening to violin music. I was into bach especially. I so much prefer many cello and violin suites and partitas or at least parts, on the original instruments. But, chaconne is one case where I disagree. Such a long piece on the screechy violin is annoying. I heard an organ version, also boring. Segovia really tells a story with that piece, his version anyway. Later I heard other guitar players play it more "correctly" or whatever, and they sucked too. So I give segovia that and some other pieces. He could be very engaging to listen to.
But when the music requires a more rhythmic approach he fails, only because he slows down the hard spots deliberately. I don't mind rubato necessarily and he himself makes a cool statement "in the delicate disrespect for the rhythm, we define the good or the bad artist..." . I think it's totally true...but ironic coming from him because in so many cases we who play know he is cheating at times. You have to admit when he is on, the feeling is really there. And the scope of his repertoire and things he did admist concertizing and championing the guitar is impressive and his arrogance not any more surprising than many other spanish artists.
Bream I know many prefer and to me he just is a spaz and timing and control is the issue. Yepes and many others same deal. Williams is cool and controlled and it's really nice and impressive and the rhythmic drive and feeling really set him apart from his contemporaries....but then there would be sections of music where he is just so boring and I don't mean in the robot way that many criticize him for, that is BS. It's more just in the expressive spots, he just doesn't care or exaggerates or something. I think that is why I can't get into classical music. Why can't they just SKIP the sections they suck at like we flamenco guitarists can? Stick to what you enjoy feel and deliver with 100%.
About the teaching thing and his ego. yada yada we went over this already. I feel the same as before. I put more on the student than the teacher. The fingering should be respected, period. That is why you go to him or her. Its a slap in the face to go to master class and try to make a case infront of class. Different if you talk serious in private about it and get the reason and feedback why your way might not be the best and you humbly and respectfully listen, and carefully try to ease in your view point. I can't imagine my idiot self refinger the hell out of Jucal and showing gerardo "here is my version, it's better". Gerardo corrects me and I listen to him...there is a reason. ON my own I can do what I want.
Segovia and flamenco...I doubt he ever liked flamenco. I know he says his first experience was a flamenco player and the rasgueado was annoying to him. He liked the melodic quality and that was that. He is NOT alone with his opinion even today. What was dumb was for him to pretend the flamenco players where not technically skilled by the time PDL got his butt in the Teatro Real. But he was old by then so it's easier to forgive him.
Wow Ricardo, not only are you a talented flamenco guitarist [your music still on my playlist with Amigo, De Lucia and Tomatito] but a very insightful and balanced music critic and historian. This is one of the finest review I have ever read about Segovia and the meaning of his contribution to guitar and classical music. There are too many iconoclasts these days, sentencing from improvised benches, in their superficial witch-hunt that burns down the memories that built our present.
Thank you for helping us all putting things into the proper perspective.
Flamencito, if you haven't heard Segovia yet you shouldn't avoid listening to him just because of his bad reputation as a person.
Hi Fred, I agree on that. I've listened some stuff already, but somehow i just don't feel yet like exploring his music... You can only listen one song at a time. There will come i time i feel like exploring his material :)
You know what.. I go listen to some of his stuff now
Any recommendations?
Haha, good choice.
I can't really advise you what to listen because I don't know much about classical music and pieces interpretation. The first piece I heard Segovia play was "Asturias", but I guess you have already listened to it. Nevertheless, here it is:
I've been reading Ricardo's posts and he speaks very highly of Segovia's interpertation of "Chaconne", so here you go:
"Bream I know many prefer and to me he just is a spaz and timing and control is the issue. Yepes and many others same deal. Williams is cool and controlled and it's really nice and impressive and the rhythmic drive and feeling really set him apart from his contemporaries"
Ricardo, you are a great musician, but I have seen Segovia, Williams and Bream en directo. Segovia freaked me out, fabulous tone and control. Williams too clinical, cold, sin soniquete. Bream, with his lack of control due to intensity and overexuberance, freaked me out too.
I don´t mind a bit of rubato in service of art. Some years ago I heard Chocolate with Carrion: most of his soleá was compás de 14 and Carrion followed him. But what a pleasure and what a memory!
Music is incredible: just come back from Cambalache listening to 4 great musicians playing a mixture of Monk and their own compositions.
I dislike the way segovia makes no attempt to play legato in the chaconne where it would be difficult. He tries to sell this by making the whole opening choppy. Definately the cart leading the horse.
Despite the fact that Bach is as far as I am concened the most beautiful human being who ever existed I am seldom engaged all the way through the Chaconne. Not by Milstein nor by Heifetz or Perlman nor even Rachel Podger. But one night I was listening to this cat on Radio Threes Late Junction.
And he kept me all the way, yep right to the end. What amazed me most was that none of it,not one second, was even close to how I would want to play it. It was intensely personal and soulful. There were awesome gaps in his technique but his solutions/fudgings took on a life of their own and BECAME the piece. Just a higher calibre of musician than Segovia. And unlike every violinist liberated from pandering to the impending comparison with Heifetz.
I don't have a problem with late romanticism as is the fashion. But I like it the way I like it, If I want a Strauss song I go to Vitoria de Los Angeles and stay well clear of Elizabeth Shwartzkopb. If I want great Rubato and over the top Vibrato I go to Sidney Bechet and ask for a cadenza. If I want Bach from the mid twenetieth century then I go French Eugene Dombois(lute) or Maurice Gendron(cello).
The only thing I would go to Segovia for would be Mompou's Suite Compostelana.(not on youtube, sorry).
The thing, for me, about playing classical guitar is that it is like being an actor. You have to become the piece for the duration of a performance. Now we are all human and we all fail every time. But Williams repeatedly steps completely out of character, even on record. Now If an actor in the middle of a scene talks to his shoes then we dont blame the playright, or plays as an artform we blame him for not being in the moment.
When you have the luxury of studying with an instrumentalist/composer like Nunez, I agree you should interpret as they say, at least up front. But then it comes to obviously Bach, the fingerings are a major part of the interpretation, and to follow one persons fingerings (and in case of a bowed instrument also the exact bowings ) is perhaps one of the things Williams is getting at. Today it's considered questionable teachining practice to not allow the student to find fingerings and explore the sonority and expressions that comes with playing in different registers and with shifts in different places. This is a whole conversation in and of itself.
I would like to open the door about fingerings actually. And it relates back on topic, segovia and FLAMENCO. Watching that master class I become quite aware of how DIFFERENT segovia does things compared to his students. He is doing the typical disciplined moves that most top level flamenco players do, especially with left hand but I notice details of the right hand as well. Its odd that majority don't pick up on these details...maybe cuz he has fat fingers? Well, when flamenco players, top ones like Manolo, Ricardo, PDL, Nuñez, Tomatito, etc etc, they way the hands work is not with questionable and odd fingering or like just going for the notes to make them sound. It looks visually more like a choreographed dance. The hands are connecting dots and creating lines of movement and the end result (compas or libre or rubato) is FLUIDITY. It's the main thing lacking with classical guitarists and odd that the streetwise flamencos adhere so much better to this concept of disciplined fingering than classical guitarists or jazz or rock players etc.
There is the spot in chaccone where the woman is supposed to swap fingers on a string under a bass, then BARRE and slide the "wrong" finger to position the barre... she never gets it actually and still does a half barre after figiting with the two fingers. Its a no brainer to a flamenco because its like a little pellizco of a dance. And to think there is a BETTER fingering when you realize the point of the fluid movement of the hand is...dumb. Or at least totally off the target in terms of the point of a specific fingering.
Now you can argue that it's bach and fingerings up for grabs and should be encouraged etc...but in the end you have what exactly? I mean Williams is the technical wiz and robotic master...REALLY????? ANd Peña is doing what with him in "sevillanas" (sevillanas por favor) where he complains of jumping from one chord to another....REALLy WILLIAMS????? That is like beginner level basic time keeping lesson. Its like "dude you are not ready for this piece yet. Do easier songs that you can play IN TIME first". Yet the guy has HOURS of repertoire already "mastered" and recorded...and accused of being TOO TECHNICAL. I like when Peña laughs at him.
So I see segovia following certain lines with with his technique and hand moves that are akin more to flamenco style playing...perhaps because he is andaluz and it really is in the blood? I mean obvious many don' get my point, but it is visually as clear to me as his accent when speaking, it's like an accent in the "look" of his hands. He does the whole steps with 1-3-4 and every other student is really like "what does it matter I do 1-2-4?". Then you see all the dark side flamencos (almost all) doing majority 1-3-4...I mean little things like that have a lot of meaning to me guitarwise, I don't care WHO the composer is being interpreted. And so now they argue that fingering should be open to debate. Well, if you accept my "dance" analogy imagine some little girl go to ballet class and say "no , I will be doing the movements my own way"... Anyway it's how I am seeing it on the old vids.
There are some right hand things too, for example segovia fat fingers are not straight into strings they curve and move from middle joint more, and his thumb out over soundhole. His only student who got it was the winner Miguel BarberA who got the Ramirez guitar. It's a detail but odd that classical players that follow this school or that, don't pick up on the details and the "unschooled" flamencos DO very much focus on these things.
The 37,543rd regurgitation of anti-Segovia bile. This is about as silly as Alberto Lopez Poveda's hagiography masquerading as biography.
RNJ
I wasn't sure what your comments were related to so I went and read the observer article and really couldn't see anything that unpleasant.
But since this post is entitled Segovia and flamenco and I didn't mention flamenco in my previous post here is my take on Segovia,flamenco and snobbery. Snobbery is the phenomenon where people lacking sufficient confidence in themselves base their supposed superiority on membership of a group ( this is pretty much George Orwell's definition of Nationalism). Anyone not in the group is considered to be inferior.
Politicians have always exploited this weakness in people.
I don't believe that Segovia was as obtuse as many of his pronouncements make him seem, in much the same way that I don't believe that George Bush junior was quite as stupid as he seemed. I think Segovia had great intuitive understanding of the snobbery and prejudice that were rife in the market he was trying to tap into. I believe that he tailored his comments to appeal to 'cultured philistines'. Thus all flamenco was rubbish, all other guitarists were rubibsh, electric guitar was rubbish all folk music rubbish, composers that did not write pieces to exploit his style were rubbish etc etc.
Lots of his fans lapped this nonsense up. In fact a great deal of classical guitar teachers and students still do.
Why did Segovia do this. I think it was sheer greed and desire to keep all plaudits for himself. He claimed that he was saving the guitar from the flamencos but I don't buy that at all. He was endeavouring to save the guitar FOR HIMSELF. He sneered at all his contemporaries ( his correspondance with Ponce regarding Villa Lobos is hilarious). He encouraged his public to do likewise, like snobs everywhere many of them were only too glad to oblige.
And that is the problem right there ... he succeeded. Whole generations of idiots and snobs all over the world are still teaching that classical guitar is the only kind of guitar which is worth studying. Whenever I talk to someone who plays a different style once they learn that I play classical they assume that this is my position, the Segovia postition. Subsequent discussion can be very difficult because of all of this baggage. I know what I like, I like everything. But just mention classical guitar and people think have a heads up on my supposed prejudices. Very tedious.
Segovia openly tried to define what guitar playing should be. I don't think he had the right to do this. I don't think any artist in any field has every earned that right.
Bearing all that in mind a few years ago I went back and listened to all Segovia. Spent about two weeks listening to it every day whilst running. It was hard work. Lots of shallow self indulgent readings of half baked pieces. Some creditable Castlenuevo Tedesco, dreadful Bach, the excellent Mompou I mentioned above. There was no Britten, no Frank Martin no Walton.
True there was a lot of colour. But there was also an awful lot of changing colour in the middle of a line, ruining the line. Trampling on the structure and harmonic rhythm. A lot of the time it seemed that he was just trying to use the pieces to show off his style and to hell with the form. ME ME ME his playing says.
Anyone wanting to know about Segovia listen to his playing. You might have a different take from me. If Segovia proved anything it was that second hand opinions are deeply suspect.
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Why all this whinging about Segovia? Some people like his playing, some don't. Some think he was the demigod of classical guitar, some think he was a jerk.
John Williams seldom misses an opportunity to bad mouth Segovia. Other Segovia students praise him as a friend and mentor. Nobody here knows why that is the case.
In this thread there are observations abut Segovia's playing, based on listening to recordings. There are observations about his technique, got from watching videos. You can point to these objectively and give your opinions on stuff anyone can observe for themselves. Then there are people here and elsewhere who pontificate about the character of someone they know of only through hearsay distorted by generations of gossip.
Like everybody, Segovia no doubt had his good points and his bad points. He was a person, and rather an interesting one. I don't think anyone here is qualified to pass judgment on him, and I don't think contributing to the gossip would put you on the moral high ground.
Angelo Gilardino, the former concert artist, the composer, editor, teacher and former artistic director of the Segovia Foundation, is no unconditional fan of tive opinions on sSegovia by any means. He said, "If it would take a thousand pages to write an artistic biography of this man, it would take ten thousand pages to dispel the legends that have grown up around him."
Amen to that.
I am not defending Segovia by any means. Maybe he was a jerk. Maybe he was a great guy who came off poorly at times. Maybe....who knows? I'm just fed up with the sanctimonious condemnations by people who can have little, if any idea of who the man actually was.
Then there are people here and elsewhere who pontificate about the character of someone they know of only through hearsay distorted by generations of gossip.
"If it would take a thousand pages to write an artistic biography of this man, it would take ten thousand pages to dispel the legends that have grown up around him."
Amen to that.
RNJ
About the first I base my opinion on interviews I have seen with him over which he had editorial control. Private letters where he is contemptuous of major figures like Villa Lobos and his undisguised bullying of students. I think that I have the right to find him personally distasteful.
As to the second I agree whole heartedly. Let us banish the myths.
With regards to hagiography I suspect some people are more comfortable with it than others. Maybe because it ennobles the past and their participation in it. Me I go more with James Loewen.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Whole generations of idiots and snobs all over the world are still teaching that classical guitar is the only kind of guitar which is worth studying. Whenever I talk to someone who plays a different style once they learn that I play classical they assume that this is my position, the Segovia postition. Subsequent discussion can be very difficult because of all of this baggage. I know what I like, I like everything. But just mention classical guitar and people think have a heads up on my supposed prejudices. Very tedious.
Speaking of "idiots and snobs all over the world" being "Very tedious," do you have any idea how tedious your rant about Segovia sounds? I'm with Richard Jernigan here, in that it seems to me that you are whining, mewling, and fulminating about Segovia based on what you have read and heard. I assume you never met the man nor spoke to him. You are denigrating an individual who many consider a great musician, whether he had a sparkling personality or not. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but there are many who would disagree with you. And to call people who disagree with you "idiots and snobs" reveals much more about yourself than it does about them.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Whole generations of idiots and snobs all over the world are still teaching that classical guitar is the only kind of guitar which is worth studying.
And to call people who disagree with you "idiots and snobs" reveals much more about yourself than it does about them.
Bill
I believe that I said that people who teach that 'classical guitar is the only kind of guitar which is worth studying.' are idiots and snobs. If you disagree then please let me know.
I thank you for your very clear and open insults and clumsy attempts to misrepresent my position. You are entitled to your fulminating as much as I, or is that more ?
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
I believe that I said that people who teach that 'classical guitar is the only kind of guitar which is worth studying.' are idiots and snobs.
Indeed you did. And in registering your disagreement with their position regarding classical guitar you most certainly called them "idiots and snobs." I take it you would not have described them using such epithets had you agreed with them.
Regarding "clear and open insults," I do not hurl epithets such as "idiots" and "snobs" at those with whom I disagree, be it over their position on classical or any other genre of music, politics, philosophy, or anything else. Everyone is entitled to his position, and disagreements are healthy as long as they don't degenerate into name-calling.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Obviously Segovia's personality and legacy are controversial here among flamenco fans, how about in the classical world? Is he looked upon as reverently as San Paco(I hate that but it's funny) or is he somewhat controversial? As someone said earlier I know John Williams hasn't always had the best things to say.
Bill, That Villa-Lobos etude that my classical teacher showed me came in handy later too. I played that arpeggio in front of Paco de Malaga at Guitar Gallery one afternoon and he got that stern Spaniard look on his face and said "NO! Try dis! " Then he showed me how to turn the etude into an abstraction so you could use it to practice arpeggios useful in flamenco, like in tarantos for example. He is a wonderful teacher. Wish I could remember more falsetas he showed me.
As I think I mentioned after our third or fourth beer at the Edinburgh Pub in San Francisco, Stephen, Paco is still a wonderful teacher. My wife Marta and I have become very good friends with Paco and his wife Ana Martinez. As regards our student-teacher relationship, I liken it to Paco being a master potter working with me as very bad clay. He does the best he can with inferior material. But Paco appreciates that I persevere in spite of my lack of talent. Always great fun.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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