Average weights of flamenco guitars?

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Average weights of flamenco guitars?

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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

Average weights of flamenco guitars?

There was a thread on this a few years ago, but could not find any conclusive results.

Does anyone have any idea what the normal High and Low weights might be on flamenco guitars?

Out of curiosity I weighed some of mine on an accurate beam scale. The results were as follows:

Castillo BRZ negra/tuners - 1597 grammes
Castillo Granadillo negra w/geared pegs - 1755 gms
Castillo Granadillo negra/tuners - 1688 gms
Gil DeAvalle classical, Indian Rosewood/tuners - 1509 gms
Old Ventura peghead blanca - 1384 gms.

These weights all seem a bit high to me.

Are they higher than average, or are there no 'average' weights for flamenco guitars?

Interested to hear your comments. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2012 16:56:53

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

I've encountered some light weight negras (and classicals) and some fairly hefty blancas.

FWIW, three guitars (blancas) that I currently have, weighed on a laboratory grade digital scale:

1963 Jose Ramirez, spruce/cypress/pegs -1183 g. / 2 lbs. 9.73 oz.
1973 Manuel Contreras, spruce/cypress/pegs -1197 g. / 2 lbs. 10.22 oz.
1997 Pedro C. Valbuena, spruce/cypress/Fustero machines -1312 g. / 2 lbs. 14.28 oz.

Some of the guitar history/picture books, like the Sheldon Urlik and the Grondona/Waldner books, give the weight of the instruments illustrated. If you have access to any of those it would be easy enough to figure out "averages", should you want to take the time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2012 18:16:37

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

charles--interesting that the ramirez weighs 1183 grams as jose ramirez 3 says in his book, things about the guitar, that a blanca should weigh between 900-1000 grams. i wonder how many 900 gram guitars actually came out of the shop?

the domingo esteso blanca in the book, the classical guitar a complete history, weighs in at 1133 grams. the ramirez weighs in at 1247 (with machine tuners and a longer scale length)

brit guy--given the weight difference between rosewood and cypress it does not surprise me your negras weigh considerably more than the blanca you listed as well as the blancas listed by charles.

i went to see if my guitar had a weight listed by the luthier who made it but no such luck. i guess i will have to pay a visit to my local cocaine dealer and ask to borrow his scale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 11:33:48

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

A sampling from Sheldon Urlik's book:

1912 Saturnino Rojas, blanca/pegs, 905 g.
1913 Manuel Ramirez, blanca/pegs, 1230 g.
1922 Domingo Esteso, blanca/machines, 1110 g.
1930 Santos Hernandez, blanca/pegs, 1200 g.
1923 Modesto Borreguero, blanca/pegs, 1090 g.
1929 Miguel Rodriguez, blanca/machines, 1165 g.
1948 Marcelo Barbero, blanca/pegs, 1185 g.
1958 Marcelino Lopez, blanca/machines, 1190 g.
1957 Arcangel Fernandez, blanca/pegs, 1190 g.
1962 Jose Ramirez, blanca/pegs, 1145 g
1961 Hernandez y Aguado, blanca/machines, 1300 g.
1967 Marcelo Barbero (hijo), blanca/pegs, 1310 g.
1971 Paulino Bernabe, blanca/pegs, 1235 g.
1975 Gerundino Fernandez, negra/machines, 1620 g.
1988 Manuel Reyes, blanca/pegs, 1360 g.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 12:13:40

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

sampling from Sheldon Urlik's book:

That's really interesting C. I'd like to see that book. Is it still in print, available, etc?

What's the full title; publisher, etc.

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 12:30:28

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

The title is A Collection of Fine Spanish Guitars from Torres to the Present by Sheldon Urlik. 157 pages. Commerce CA, Sunny Knoll Publishing, 1997.

Interesting book. It also contains a few guitars by non-Spanish makers like Hauser, Bouchet, etc. There are some minor factual errors as expected in a book like this and the photography could be better but it's still a nice reference to have. Hardcover.
GSI lists it as being in stock. $119.95.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 12:43:32

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

GSI lists it as being in stock. $119.95.

Wow! One hundred and twenty bucks.

I'd have to sell a lot of pears to pay for that.

Maybe I'll try getting it through the local library. . .

Thanks anyway.

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 12:56:28

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

Yeah, nice quality, non-mass-market books on musical instruments aren't cheap.
A comparable quality book on violins would probably be 2-3 times that price.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 13:00:32

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

britguy--another good book that has sections about classical guitars, flamenco guitars and how they are constructed and major players is: tom and mary anne evans book, guitars, from renaissance to rock. the book covers all areas and about 200 pages are devoted to classical and flamenco guitars. you can usually find it used at amazon for a few dollars. i think i paid about $10 total.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 13:08:28

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

My 2008 Andres Eliasson blanca w. pegs weighs 1254 gr.

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 13:21:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

Thanks Ed. Thats pretty much my standard weight.

I will never build in the 900 - 1000 grams range.
Leight weight is important, but strength is also important. So its a matter of knowing where to build light and where to focus on strength.
The soundboard, back and sides need to have the thickness they ask for. To thin and the guitar will start being uncontrolable in the basses. The same goes for the bracing. So what is left is the rest and 900 grams would mean a very small endblock, and very small heel and foot. A very thin neck and a very thin fingerboard, where changing the frets means changing the fingerboard as well.
Beside, the very light guitars I´ve tried tend to last very short and the ones that still had life in them were very hollow sounding.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 15:28:24

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

I'm not a fan of the 900 gram guitar either. Often times they just don't have the 'peso', literally and sound wise. 1150 - 1200 grams for a blanca give or take 6 grams seems like good envelope of weight to try for.

But in the end weight does not have anything to do with how they sound. It is possible to make a killer blanca that is heavier.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 17:50:08

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

I have no idea how much my 1977 Jose Ramirez weights but it is seems to be as light as a feather. Speaking about light...if you hold it in front of a strong light source and look trough the sound hole you can vaguely see the light shining trough it's backside. It has superb sound and playability but can not cope with the standard guitar tuning because the string tension will bend it's neck (like a bow and arrow). So i have to tune it a little bit lower in stead. Despite that problem it's an absolutely fabulous instrument.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 18:24:06

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
Light weight is important, but strength is also important. So its a matter of knowing where to build light and where to focus on strength.

I'm a bit of a newb to a lot of things but would a very light instrument be incredibly fragile?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 20:06:11

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

It has superb sound and playability but can not cope with the standard guitar tuning because the string tension will bend it's neck (like a bow and arrow). So i have to tune it a little bit lower in stead. Despite that problem it's an absolutely fabulous instrument.

Well that is huge problem from a builders standpoint because you can't tell a customer, "Oh hey, just tune it to D and it will be fine." The guitar is too weak and even if it has good sound a guitar in E flat or D not what you want to build unless you meant it.

However, you might look into having a carbon fiber spar installed under the fingerboard. Then you could tune it to pitch.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 21:05:16

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

I'm a bit of a newb to a lot of things but would a very light instrument be incredibly fragile?

See post above yours.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 21:06:23

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

I don't try to build as light as humanly possible because I find the sound I like with a little more weight. My blancas with machines are usually around 1300 grams. I do make my tops and bridges as light as possible.
I think my negras are a little lighter than the average negra.

I remember that Peter Tsiorba tested the limits of weight a while back, using very thin maple back and sides he came out just under 1000 grams I think.

I think maple was a good choice. I have a beautiful set of Euro flamed maple that is almost as light as cypress and a lot stiffer.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 22:14:40

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

It has superb sound and playability but can not cope with the standard guitar tuning because the string tension will bend it's neck (like a bow and arrow). So i have to tune it a little bit lower in stead. Despite that problem it's an absolutely fabulous instrument.

Well that is huge problem from a builders standpoint because you can't tell a customer, "Oh hey, just tune it to D and it will be fine." The guitar is too weak and even if it has good sound a guitar in E flat or D not what you want to build unless you meant it.

However, you might look into having a carbon fiber spar installed under the fingerboard. Then you could tune it to pitch.

Never ever. Like i said sound and playability are superb and i'm not going to compromise that by altering the neck. In fact my 80 years old father has it in possession right now since it is the most player-friendly flamenco guitar in our possession (we also own a Gerundino and a Conde but my favorite one is the Ramirez). Fortunately i have successfully persuaded him to use his classical Ramirez instead (a superb instrument he over protectively played only a couple of times during the past 50 years) so he recently told me to come and collect the Ramirez flamenco guitar on occasion. The majority of time he plays Bach on one of his lutes anyway (who are even more player friendly jude to there much lower string tension).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 22:42:05

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

But you need to realize what your saying only applies to you. If the gutiar can't stand full tension for strings it's not built right right, which supports the point that light under built guitars are a problem.

My step father is from Holland, he was born in Heerlen. I often have to carefully repeat things several times to him before his Dutch mind can grasp that an American born person might know something.

But he is 83 now and after 40 years of being married to my mother I only have to repeat things twice now.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 23:12:09

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

If the gutiar can't stand full tension for strings it's not built right right, which supports the point that light under built guitars are a problem.

Can't argue with that, in fact i totally agree. But build right or not, i still think it's a wonderful instrument (admired by many) and i wouldn't sell it for any prize (not even 15K which could buy me a wonderful 12 string resonance guitar of the Dutch luthier Bert Kwakkel).... obviously i'm not married :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 0:09:55

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Erik van Goch)

erik's ramirez is 35 years old and i wonder if age has caught up with it and possibly not the weight which we do not know?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 0:34:26

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to keith)

I don't think age is the problem. The classical Ramirez we own is 50 years old and don't seem to have problems at all. As far as i can judge the flamenco one is unchanged since we bought it. It's neck is still as straight as straight can be but as soon as one tunes up to normal tuning the neck bends forwards a little bid (ore more likely the angle of the neck towards the guitar alters). Fortunately i don't feel the need to do so, in fact i haven't used a tuning fork myself during the past 15 years and my guitars are tuned to whatever sounds/feels right and/or fits the recording i'm ear playing. Most of the time that will be pretty close to E.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 1:35:09

kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

If the guitar sounds great , why care about the weight?
They are all in the 1-2 kg +/- few grams range..obviously

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 3:45:58

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

In the 20 year period i played my "problematic" ultralight 1977 Ramirez on a regular base i basically had it tuned on standard tuning without noticeable problems. It was my father (who played it the last couple of years) who mentioned that the neck was slightly puled forwards by the string tension. At first he thought that was the permanent result of 35 years of string tension (which can be solved by a good luthier) but when he had a closer look he discovered that the neck actually regained normal position when string tension was lowered a little bid and basically was as straight as straight can be.

So despite 33 years of normal tuning the bended neck is not a permanent state of being but the real-time result of the string tension of that very moment. Obviously when the neck alters position in normal tuning so do the strings, who as a result will take a little more distance to the fred board in especially the higher positions. As it turns out the only reason my father decided to down tune it a little bit after above discovery was to bring the position of the strings as closely as possible to the fretboard again (with his sensible and painful hands every bit helps).

So it's bending neck doesn't seem to be as problematically as it sounded to me at first ear. Yes, normal tuning does pul the neck forwards a little bid and as a result the strings do run a little higher than intended but even in that condition it still is the most player friendly flamenco guitar we have. Lowering the tension simply makes it even more player friendly to players with painful hands (when i injured a finger i could only play a guitar down tuned to a lower G for a while).

I also asked my father to weight the guitar and to my surprise it did 1150 g. It feels like a feather compared to our Conde (and in a lesser extent our Gerundino) so i seriously wonder how a 905 g. guitar will feel, play and sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 18:31:46

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

Most Ramirez flamencos from about 1967 to the end of the 70s had cedar tops. Mine lasted very well. Cedar is a lighter wood than spruce I think. Do cedar tops and pegs make for lighter guitars or is it balanced out in the construction (tops worked thinner and wood removed from the head slots)?

I really like the feel of lighter guitars like my Ramirez but I have to admit that my heaviest guitar is the best overall for me.

Here are some stats from my guitars to add to the thread.

65 Viuda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso spruce/cypress machines 1300g
68 Ramirez cedar/cypress pegs 1210g
91 M Bellido spruce/cypress pegs (with 9 fan struts slimmed down Fleta bracing) 1400g
96 M Bellido spruce/cypress machines (with just 5 fan braces) 1380g

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 19:02:03

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

I really like the feel of lighter guitars like my Ramirez

Yes, I agree. My Ramirez blanca, cypress / spruce (bought directly from Jose #3 in 1958) was very light. Much lighter than anything I own right now. It handled beautifully and was a delight to play, but quite fragile.

When I emigrated to Montreal in the sixties it developed serious cracks front and back every winter. Eventually got tired of having them repaired and sold it. Wish now that I had not. . .

(Hindsight. . .)

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 20:30:27

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

If you're feeling nostalgic, there's currently a 1958 Ramirez blanca on eBay. There's also a 1963 up for grabs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 20:43:31

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

there's currently a 1958 Ramirez blanca on eBay

H M M M. Wonder if it's my old one? It had two distinctive dark knot-holes in the back lower bout.

If so, it will have a lot of cracks.

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 21:10:50

jorpheus

Posts: 8
Joined: May 13 2010

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy)

Antonio Marin Montero (1971, Mariana Pineda), top cedar, back and side cypress, ebony tuning pegs, 660 mm scale: 1160 g.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2013 10:35:03

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

I think maple was a good choice.

Just done a quick weight up of what I have around to the nearest 0.05kg - fish scales!!
1st guitar - 1.5kg - largely due to a steel reinforcement bar on the neck - sounds fine but wont do that again!!
Negra with pegs and sitka front - 1.325kg
Cypress blanca with (a bit too heavy) machines - 1.4kg
Latest - yet to post up - 50yr old sycamore with pegs and 640mm scale - 1.15kg

I'm making all my necks with a rosewood laminate at the mo. I'm not a fan of making the front too thin - but I will push the back and sides if I think I can get away with it. I doubt if I could get results that would stand the test of time if the whole instrument is too light - flamenco really asks the soundboard for a lot. My same logic on weight for violins - some makers build using this as the guide rather than thickness alone. Just tossing stuff into the pan and I'll organise a photo sess. for the latest.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2013 11:02:21

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