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I meant to say... There is the pulse or downbeat, and you can count it or subdivide it depending on the tempo. I can post links to examples but I'm in my car listening at the moment.
I would say that Vicente uses flamenco time signature structures as a framework but that doesn't mean that he clearly accentuates the traditional places (this goes for the guitar, the backing or both).
I have no idea but Vicente is the only one I know that has been doing that since the 90's.
You might want to pay attention to Jose Manuel Leon, sometimes I feel like Iam listening to prog metal with a bulerias pattern slightly coming from the background to remind you of the traditional beat
But hey, what do I know... this is just loosely based on my "listening observations" without writing it down to analyse it.
RE: Bulerias en 6 rhythm (in reply to Sr. Martins)
All this is really is the first half of the 12 cycle. Starting from 12
I'm waiting for Richard or someone to say Duh this is Bulerias!
The more I think about it I'll bet it's been around. I mean, it's probably just another way to use bulerias in 6s. I havnt been analyzing what I hear from the cajon until recently, and so used to hearing the standard 12 cycle.
I'm having trouble following the conversation but maybe cus I'm not a huge 'Cente fan.....Amigo or Fernandez lol Here's what I've learned about bulerias feels and maybe the info will answer some questions for you. The different bulerias feels are; seguido, antiguo, al golpe, waltz, and basé. Seguido: Foot CLAP clap CLAP clap clap Antiguo: Foot clap clap foot clap clap Al golpe: CLAP clap clap foot CLAP foot Waltz: Foot/CLAP clap clap foot/CLAP clap clap Basé: Foot CLAP clap CLAP clap clap foot CLAP CLAP foot CLAP CLAP (basically 6 of seguido and 6 of al golpe)
Of course there's variations on all these and remates and mixes etc... But I understand this is a good base to begin with. Hope that helps at all!
im not sure what you are on about .. because you have not put any rhythmical examples ..except clap , foot clap ...whatever which really is not the way as it is difficult to understand what your question is
this may help you ask your question ... here is a video ..that speaks ks of, apart from the 3, 6, 8, 10, 12, inflection that you would expect in a bulerias .. you can also just drop out into a 3 only ..or as he puts it constant a 6/8 rhythm , ith no particular strong beat .. until it is needed depending on what else is happening .. singer dancer for example
So he is talking about a ground or base rhythm that can constantly run underneath it all .. not sure how good you spanish is but there are subtitles and really you just need to listen .. pay attention to what he is calling .. ''El Tiempo de Tiera'' (about 3.;10 ) i think this may be for you
I'm having trouble following the conversation but maybe cus I'm not a huge 'Cente fan.....Amigo or Fernandez lol Here's what I've learned about bulerias feels and maybe the info will answer some questions for you. The different bulerias feels are; seguido, antiguo, al golpe, waltz, and basé. Seguido: Foot CLAP clap CLAP clap clap Antiguo: Foot clap clap foot clap clap Al golpe: CLAP clap clap foot CLAP foot Waltz: Foot/CLAP clap clap foot/CLAP clap clap Basé: Foot CLAP clap CLAP clap clap foot CLAP CLAP foot CLAP CLAP (basically 6 of seguido and 6 of al golpe)
Of course there's variations on all these and remates and mixes etc... But I understand this is a good base to begin with. Hope that helps at all!
I think you're on to something really cool with this - if you can think of basic examples you can upload here it would be awesome.
I'll try to explain better with examples. (Sorry IOS/Apple doesn't like to embed the videos) My question was -- are the examples I have given in the above post a different way to feel Bulerias in 6?
And what about feeling bulerias in a 1-2-3-and Sort of count? As in this example: http://youtu.be/WwIQP97lCCM
Basically, I'm in need of some Unification to all of this. I understand that Bulerias in 6s sounds a bit different than what we first learn as the 12 count compas, rise and fall... Or that you can combine two 6 cycles and get a 12. But as Len took the time to explain, there are a lot of rhythmic variations !
I think that this video answers my question. He definitely filled in some blanks. Especially how there are underlying rhythms , like the Tierra 3 count.
At the 8.00 minute mark he talks about 6/8 rhythm for dancers. Well, I learned this a long time ago. I even played for a dance class for a little while. It's the rhythm in Pacos Almoriamia opening falseta.
But at about the 9:30 minute mark he is playing a 6 count rhythm which sounds like my first example of Vicente Amigo. Just about I think. It's not quite a Tiemp de Tierra or Walz . It has more of a 6 count swing. And in my second video, sure enough it's kind of halfing the 6 count rhythm in the first video.
I think the confusion for me is not that Bulerias can be chopped up from 12 to 6 to 3, but that they all sound like different rhythms with different accents, . And, this is what makes it fun and expressive.
I think I needed some unification! It Is FLEMISH after all :) trying to confuse this Payo! I mean, all these rhythmic variations have to stop somewhere or we can start calling Tayolr Swifts new song on the radio a Bulerias for Christ sake! I kid I kid
On a different note, I took a break from flamenco for about 5 years and I'm sort of coming back. I had some life events happen, but also I needed time away from it.
I think it helped a lot! My mind was always rushing and stressed out when playing. I became too obsessed Now, I've got this i don't care attitude. Partly because I'm married now and I get in trouble when I'm in my head for too long. And I'm taking time to go backwards and relearn areas that I avoided before. Anyway, cookie for me Lol!
Could it be that sometimes very quick rythm of bulerías and he feel the bulería 'a 4'.
Usual when the claps rythm is very high.
-> this is the basic pattern clap that I always heard for gypsy children in Madrid (with x= silence) when they start. From it, they do amazing things. x C x x C C x C x x C C
x 2 x x 3 x x 6 x x 9 x -> this seems 4/4 sometimes.
where x is soft or silence.
Sorry for the basic of my expression, I have poor musical reading knoledge.
Like this
The wonderful thing of bulería is that is an syncopated artefact in 3/4, and therefore a mathematical sudoku itself that dependes on the person.
Like flamenco accents, it has been probed that their intensitty is not like most of us feel them.
Bulerías are syncoped rhythm, but the point is what is the intrument , or mixture of them, that generates accents (guitar, claps, singing, dancer, box ...). It always think that is quite similar to the traditional syncoped ancient and traditional fandangos verdiales from Malaga (not the flamencos) where each instrument has a very different point of view ot ht same 3/4 with a weak beat despite an acent.
Ah! and what a Great master is José Luis Rodriguez!
Once I was invited to see Julio Aparicio in Antequera. We had a meal with him in the Parador the night before. In the corrida he made the best quite of the week. We spent the night having tapas with the cuadrilla, then I went alone to Málaga and stayed for the feria. Every day verdiales in Larios, many even more tradicional than these, niñas bailando por verdiales en la Plaza, then a corrida and por la noche la Real de la Feria. Never to be forgotten!
La proxima vez que pienses en pasar por Cádiz, llamame y tomaremos una cervecita juntos o puedes comer en mi casa.
Polyrhythmic, is a good word. It strikes me as odd just how long the thread has been going and it hasn't come up.
Wikipedia is pretty good as usual with definitions and the like.
Weird thing though I was on a wildlife forum and the guys there said that bats actually weren't using sonar because they hadn't been to college to study engineering or science. And the forum guys must have been right cause they had talked to more bats and some of them even knew some king bats etc.
So maybe no real need to think about polyrhythms. Just 'feel' it by virtue of innate coolness.......... or something.
D.
PS. 9/16 motifs over buleria ( 6/8+3/4 ) harmonic rhythm sounds terrific IMHO.
Jmb, i was thinking the same. What you hear is Un -Dos -Tres -y, like a 4/4. But it still sounds like Bulerias, and it does seem like a "compressed" way of feeling the Bulerias in 6 rhythm.
The guy in the video "compas de bulerias" explains it I believe in his second video.
Great video examples btw!
Polyrhythms no doubt. I've been taking it for what it is, like a bat without knowing what sonar is...if I got your annology right :) BUT, like many here , I'm an overly analytical dude!
RE: Bulerias en 6 rhythm (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Polyrhythmic, is a good word. It strikes me as odd just how long the thread has been going and it hasn't come up.
Good point. I wanted to mention something but didn't want to come off as some stuck up music theorist (just kidding ).
We're talking 2 over 3 here no rocket science (so you can count 3 or 4 or 6 or 12 etc). The beauty is (like jmb said) which beats (or offbeats) a bunch of different people who are in the same pocket choose to accent.
FYI - the 3/6/8/12 stuff we wannabees learn in the beginning mostly applies to the [A - Bb - C - Bb - A] drone. In practice most bulerias are comprised of more rhythms.
Analyzing becomes moot at some point - better to just pick out some that you like and mix n match. Don't bother coming up with a 'formula'.
Analyzing becomes moot at some point - better to just pick out some that you like and mix n match. Don't bother coming up with a 'formula'.
But sometimes the formula is really direct and helpful. Like take something in 12/16 and play it tapping three even beats. Feels super weird initially but keep at it and you start to wonder what the problem was.
And a formula can be really really useful when you are learning something that you cant quite feel yet but need to get right before you will ever have a chance of actually experiencing how it should feel. It's like the conflicting advice about Jazz 'if you need to count then your lost' but 'if you'r lost ......COUNT'
For sure the time signatures for buleria are not where we were told (by semiliterate non spanish musicologists in the fifties) they were. And that is the real problem with theories about anything, when they don't really work or fit then you need to expand or abandon them. And then only to find you are arguing with people who never understood the original flawed ideas well enough to question them and yet they can't imagine that anyone else has. The real truth is that you gotta work out what is really going on falseta by falseta. Sometimes it will be simple and sometimes it will be Moraito's son.
But all this is my grumpiness over past miseries and not really aimed at anyone on this thread. And JMB is definitely describing polyrhythms as best he can and with admirable enthusiasm.
Oh and you know the line 'An alcoholic is someone who drinks more than their doctor' ...? Well not all doctors are alcoholics and that just about sums up my position on overanalysing.
Jmb, i was thinking the same. What you hear is Un -Dos -Tres -y, like a 4/4. But it still sounds like Bulerias, and it does seem like a "compressed" way of feeling the Bulerias in 6 rhythm
Yeah! this is usual with peruvian box in bulerias. For example if you mark only the 2 3 6 and 9. If the 3 and 9 beat are weak, then you are in a 4/4, but all the other people (guitar, voices, claps, Hammond or what you want are in ternary rhythms. For peruvian box player It is like a a 4/4 on a (3/4). As Always in flamenco y am issue of accents and compás: Rhythm. 'Compás' is the basic unit, but in specially in bulería is a 'fractal' unit. Tray always to use the patten for childrens that I write and you will find always the compás an try discover then its nuances variations.
BTW, a nice video with some gypsies in an great epicurean moment with no other claim that having fun. This is the true enviroment of bulerías, not the stages.
Note how the guitar player is contentrated hearing the cante, this is so important as technique because bulerías is a interchange.
Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances. Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion. Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real. Discover that there are virtuous things and there are non-virtuous things. Once you have discovered for yourself give up the bad and embrace the good." ~ The real Buddha
Hi everyone. I haven't been on here in a long time. Just stopped by because this thread and the falseta swap thread caught my attention. Anyway, I hope everyone is having a great 2015. This will be the year I finally go to Spain for extended study of cante accompaniment (I don't need any more material lol).
Waltz (Niño Josele calls this bulerias al golpe, hmmm?)
antiguo Very common in (but not limited to Jaleos from Estremadura) 00:27
Same Vid 00:33 Abandolaos or 6-8-10 (12-2-4)
Fandangos 00:53 Percussion is accenting (very subtly) 12 and 3 on "snare" and 4 on bass. A little later the palmas come in accenting 12 and 3. There is a superimposed hemiola. The palmas and snare imply waltz, and the first snare and bass imply 12-(2)-4, What GB is referring to as polyrhythm.
Polyrhythm is two accent patterns or more simultaneously. You can really mix and match all of the listed patterns and not be wrong. However, certain mixes-n-matches are more common. These are BASE PALMAS Patterns. Guitarists play off of these. As with cante and guitar, palmas and guitar are interactive. Palmeros adjust to the rhythm of the guitar but provide the base off of which the guitarist plays. It is processual. That is one reason why it is so difficult to capture in words.
The list of palos that are primarily in one or anther of these rhythms is incomplete. For example, bulerias de lebrija is a family of melodies but the toque is often (Not always-practice change over time and according to local [geographical] practices of course) very somber, in a waltz, a bit slower (than Jerez usually is), and often 'por arriba'. Remember that there many perspectives. If there weren't, art would be boring. There is no such thing as overanalyzing. Whatever helps you learn, so long as you internalize everything.
SPECIAL THANKS TO LEÑADOR for the info on labeling. To GB: I am not attacking you personally. I agree with many things you say but your portrayal of aficionados by alluding to alcoholism is unfair and a strawman argument.
I will post more examples as I find them. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
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Hi Kevin that is a lot of information on a single sheet of paper. I admire your goodwill and industry. I was unwise enough to dissipate mine here a long long time ago.
Discussion solely on accents can be misleading. Time signature can be pretty important too. Some accents are downbeats and some are upbeats.
One of the few standard devices missing from the sheet that I find comes up a lot is the very fast solea
(starting on 1) 2/4 + 3/4 + 4/4 +3/4. Accents can be borrowed from any of the other schemes you wrote.
Oh and the Guitarbuddha thing was a joke email address years ago and that is pretty much all. I point this out fairly regularly but like all unwanted information it is easily forgotten.
RE: Bulerias en 6 rhythm (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Sorry GB. I just edited my post noting that I wasn't attacking you.
I totally agree with your post. Just as you were amazed with how late polyrhythm came into the discussion, I am amazed that harmonic rhythm is absent.
It happens in bulerias much less often than in solea. I left this out because JasonM asked about bulerias in 6s, but maybe it should be addressed.
Harmonic rhythm in solea (SxB, BxS sometimes too, also alegrias) is caused by harmonic shifts within the compas. THere are many ways to effect harmonic rhythm but I am mainly concerned with 3/4. Everytime there is a chord change we hear a HARMONIC accent. That is because stationary harmony implies lack of movement. When a chord changes we tend to hear that as accentual even if it is not emphasizing a compas accent.
12--1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--10--11 12--1---------4---------7---------10 So the compas is 12-3-6-8-10 but secondary harmonic accents are 1-4-7-10. Only ten is common to compas accents and harmonic accents. In practice, a solea falseta could be played by emphasizing 1-4-7-10 or it could be emphasized on 3-6-8-10-12. Depending on whether or not the guitarist adds golpes, you might have polyrhythm; golpes on 3-6-8-10-12 harmonic changes on 1-4-7-10.
As with bulerias, these are basic abstractions and the nuances, or matices (in flamenco speak) are much more varied possibilities.
Again, no offense. The Buddha's words ring true for all of us. It is even true that non-flamencos sometimes can gain little insights from outside of the culture that cultural insiders cannot see because they are "in the thick of it."
Two doubts. Does it refers to cante?. We can see that some people consider that bulerías por Solea is the same than' Bulerías al Golpe' or even a slow buleria with an special tempo (e.i. I heard it from Diego el Cigala). But we can also listen some rhythm patterns. Could you say more about it?
Two doubts. Does it refers to cante?. We can see that some people consider that bulerías por Solea is the same than' Bulerías al Golpe' or even a slow buleria with an special tempo (e.i. I heard it from Diego el Cigala). But we can also listen some rhythm patterns. Could you say more about it?
Can you rephrase the question? I am not sure what you are asking.
The rhythm is a framework for the guitarist and the singer as well (assuming the singer is accompanied).
Side note: Sevillanas also shares its base rhythm with fandangos but you can interject bulerias gestures in there as well.
I hear a lot of 4/4+2/4 in fandangos. Also often three groups of 4/4 and of course simple 3/4 but starting at different parts of the compas. Same with Sevillanas. But that is basing the time signature on the harmonic rhythm of the tonal material (guitar and sung melody) as opposed to the accent groups of the polyrhythmic background.
Whereas you can get away with not noticing this consciously when performing it sure becomes useful if you are composing, improvising or rearranging falsetas.
RE: Bulerias en 6 rhythm (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
I hear a lot of 4/4+2/4 in fandangos. Also often three groups of 4/4 and of course simple 3/4 but starting at different parts of the compas. Same with Sevillanas. But that is basing the time signature on the harmonic rhythm of the tonal material (guitar and sung melody) as opposed to the accent groups of the polyrhythmic background.
Polyrhythm imo. 12--1--2--3--4--5----6--7--8--9--10--11 6----7--8--9-10-11--12-1--2--3---4---5 Golpes on 12-3-6-9 equal ternary (6/4) time (if each beat is treated as a quarter note-for eas of reading for example) Harmonic changes on 6(E)--8(Am)--10 equal 3/2 6/4-3/2 (or 6/8-3/4 in its more common guise) = vertical hemiola or polyrhythm
quote:
Whereas you can get away with not noticing this consciously when performing it sure becomes useful if you are composing, improvising or rearranging falsetas.
Yes. Cognitive science is studying knowledge, memory, etc. We now know that there are tacit (hidden) knowledges stored in the mind but there are also knowledges that one can articulate in language. This explains why some great players are horrible teachers. Some of them don't have the vocabulary to express how to do something. They just say "Here do this," which can also teach you something. They possess practical experiential knowledge but not discursive knowledge.
There is a common misperception that theory is for geeks. Zbikowski has demonstrated that everyone theorizes. It is basic to understanding anything. We abstract, categorize, analogize, etc. Paco had one of the most elaborate theories of any flamenco guitarist. Unfortuantely he did not posses a vocabulary to articulate and publish his theory (nor was that ever his intention). Imagine if he did. That would have been awesome. Again, he possessed tacit knowledge but couldn't explicitly articulate what that knowledge was. This happens a lot with experts in many fields.
WE ALL THEORIZE. Music theory is not a special domain. It is just that certain forms of it have been institutionalized.
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are in ternary rhythms. For peruvian box player It is like a a 4/4 on a (3/4). As Always in flamenco y am issue of accents and compás: Rhythm. 'Compás' is the basic unit, but in specially in bulería is a 'fractal' unit. Tray always to use the patten for childrens that I write and you will find always the compás an try discover then its nuances variations. 
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