Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Does understanding letra help guitarists?
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
|
 RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Lonnie)
|
|
|
Hi Lonnie,
Of course letras are important, but it depends how deeply you want to get into it. Some have been recorded many times over the last 100 years (Camarón's "Los pícaros tartaneros" is one). If you know something like 200 of the most popular letras, you'll know most of what's going to be sung at any given performance. There's a practical use for this because, when singers are creative, it's one way of knowing where he/she is in the letra, as Mezzo has pointed out. As I said in a recent post, if you know there are still words to be sung in the first line(s), you don't want to play the cambio yet, because that happens in the last lines. Also, if you want to talk about a specific cante, it doesn't do much good to mention the names of styles. If you say, "The style of Francisco La Perla" you're going to get a blank stare, but if you say, "Por los siete dolores" (and sing it, even very badly), it will probably be understood. More importantly, it's how singers are going to talk to you about cantes. At most, you might hear something like, "Okay, I'm going to start por Alcalá and end por Cádiz."
Metaphors and similies are basic elements of poetry. When a letra reads "I don't know where this cloud came from," "our clothes won't be washed together anymore" or "my girlfriend's eyes are one color at night and another color the next day", it's in your interest not to interpret them literally.
_____________________________
Be here now.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 23 2012 7:46:08
 |
|
Lonnie
Posts: 27
Joined: Aug. 19 2012
From: Easthampton, MA USA
|
|
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to NormanKliman)
|
|
|
I am so very much enjoying all these interesting responses. It's helpful for me to gain a little insight into the experiences of the guitarist. NormalKliman, your post in particular is an education. I'm not new to singing, nor to Spain, nor to pain (not the least of which was the pain in Spain), but I am relatively new to flamenco singing. At this point, I'm like the students in the Prado, dutifully copying the masters' works in order to learn. I find something I feel I can sing, see if Dave wants to play it, then basically parrot it and, over time, make it my own.
I guess that latter part is the beginning of creativity. But being creative with an accompanist requires a shared understanding so you're both going in the same direction at essentially the same time. You've given me some beginning ideas as to how cante signals to guitarra what's coming next. Aside from letra, what else is guitarra listening for in order to know what to do?
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 23 2012 14:52:55
|
|
Lonnie
Posts: 27
Joined: Aug. 19 2012
From: Easthampton, MA USA
|
|
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to XXX)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
Not understanding letras is the obstacle no.1 in not being able to emotionally connect with cante for foreigners, in my opinion.
Which is why, as un-flamenco as it may be, I introduce nearly all our songs, in English of course to our English-speaking audience, telling what the story is. This has a dual effect: they enjoy it and connect with it noticeably more, and I become inspired to find songs that have a story different from unrequited love, death, or moonlight (to briefly paraphrase several of you). Just found a sevillanas biblicas that includes Absalom hanging from a tree, King David (which is excellent, since we have two Davids in our group) and "I love you" at the end: http://youtu.be/U33QcGQbYXg Just can't tire of this stuff!
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 24 2012 21:01:05
|
|
El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
|
|
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to beno)
|
|
|
quote:
Do You find interest in knowing the chord progressions the guitar is comping under Your letras?
I dont think that is the same at all ...as everyone has a language . you will see videos and stuff of songs in your own language and they will make sense , to you , as you can here the words and they will fit the mood or image ...you didnt have to do anything extra to have that ability except listen ......see...
If I am listening to the words of a song , and you really cant help it, you know that something dramatic is about to happen, in the story line , then of course you are ready for it , as a guitarist . to accompany that particular point, otherwise it might sound a bit wierd ...
I would say that it is imperative to the song as thats the way language works , after all you can often predict the end of a sentence by about half way through ,with speech i mean ... and normally you will be right , although you could get caught out from time to time , but normally you can guess ahead and more so if you practice it ...
This is because language and especially songs that tell a story are to a certain extent predictable as they follow the rules ..and that is what you follow as well..
And even more so I think that Lonnie has inadvertently answered her own question even in the title of the post
Does understanding letra (words)help guitarists?
Of course it does thats why its called a song and not a tune . the song is the words , and the whole thing depends upon it , including the ammount of syllables in words for rhythmn and so many other things , all of it ... how can it not help ?
Can you accompany someone telling a story that you have no idea what he is saying ...now that would be a strange question .....
my two cents .....
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 24 2012 22:12:32
|
|
El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
|
|
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Leñador)
|
|
|
quote:
I don't hear the words to a song unless I actively listen for words,
Not sure if I totally belive that , you must know the words to some songs at least the 'catchy ' chorus just cos it was on the radio or like that , and you have heard it , sort of inadvertently
I was talking about Spanish but it doesnt really matter ,everyone must have at least one language , English if you want ,,..I still belive that you hear the words to songs on the radio , at least some of them ,without trying ....and if you paid attention, then more .
quote:
and I don't hear the words to a song unless I actively listen for words,
Which is my point . if you were accompanying , you would be actively listening and this would assist you in the playing ,,surely .......
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 24 2012 23:02:23
|
|
Lonnie
Posts: 27
Joined: Aug. 19 2012
From: Easthampton, MA USA
|
|
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to beno)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: beno
Hey Lonnie!
Do You find interest in knowing the chord progressions the guitar is comping under Your letras? Fingerings? Rythm variations? Dont You think it would help You understand the songs much better?
I think You got my point?!
Oh, I totally find interest in that, since I was a guitarist (not a great one) long before I was a singer. I did half my college studies in music, so yeah, the fingerings are interesting to the point that I understand my guitarist (he's my husband, too, lucky me) when he talks about them, I absolutely get the basics of chord progressions and totally believe that that contributes to my ability to sing.
We have dancers. Some dancers know how to count - they really understand the underlying compas - and some don't. And I do not enjoy working with those who don't. Same deal. The more you know of what others are doing, the better you are at what you're doing. I learned how to dance the sevillanas years ago, so I appreciate all they're going through. Well... *some* of what they're going through. Guitarists and singers should be able to do a little dance, too.
So was that your point? Sorry if I missed it.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 25 2012 2:33:55
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Lonnie)
|
|
|
quote:
After a couple years of performing with our group, I discovered that said guitarist doesn't understand much of what I sing nor does he feel that it's all that important to understand it. This is fascinating to me. What do you other guitarists think of this? Do you bother to learn the meaning of the lyrics, and if so or if not, why or why not?
He is correct, also lenador is on right track. The lyric content is virtually meaningless to accompanying cante or any singing period. Following rhythmic contour of melody and tonos (harmonic progressions) under a simple held vowel sound should be proof enough to any one with a musical ear and mind (a large and important portion of flamenco singing is exactly this and even nonsense words like tirtiritran, trabili tran pilo pilo le le obi oba ay na nay traca tran etc). The emotive details of the poetry of a letra while important to audience aficionados singer himself etc, need not affect the guitarist EXTERNALLY at all. For example, "you took my money bad gipsy girl, im returning to my mom"...has a lot of meaning to me personally, but doesn't need to inspire me to burst forth with an emotional explosion of picado and alzapua WHILE ACCOMPANYING the singer singing it. My role is to accompany well and that need not involve getting all emotional.
Regarding words and sounds/syllables separate from deeper poetic meaning, again, they tie to rhythm, but in various was, not a single specific way. Its funny when ethno musicologists focus on numbers of syllables and rhythms to categorize singing, and totally ignore musical phrasing and form. I dont' want to go off topic though. As an example, Jason Mcguire "knows" tons of letras and how exactly to accompany them and their variations, but seems to have zero conversational spanish. How can you argue you MUST know Spanish to accompany well? Know CANTE yes, but spanish and cante are two different things. Otherwise you would fine many latin american people doing far greater with cante than say europeans....but that opposite is more the norm. And in fact even the words themselves make sense to the spanish speaking listener, but not the BACK story tied to the culture, so the emotive details again are missing. The reason you find more non spanish european people into flamenco than say than latino people is because cante is MUCH more than poetry. It is MUSIC, and that dealing with it (accompanying) requires a MUSICIAN first, and the deeper you go sure you end up in heart of andalucia and all that goes with that.
I will say that if you dont' understand the letras, and you find yourself accompanying say a singer doing only ONE style of fandango, while it wont' hinder the guitarists ability to accompany perfectly and emotively well, you can see after say 5 letras all the same musically, well its boring. You as the guitarist will be missing out on the whole point if you are not grasping the meaning of the words. Again it doesn't affect the performance, but it's an obvious reason to start understanding lyrics for full enjoyment of the art.
I will admit that other styles where we have to follow tonos and keep compas (more challenging for accompanying than fandango as stated above), knowing what is being sung, not knowing the exact letra but simply understanding and focusing on words an meaning, can get you lost. I have seen it happen and had it happen. To accompany you need to step out of "audience listener" role and focus on the role you have which is to support the singer and react to what ever gets thrown at you....MUSICALLY. Rhythm is number one. Doesn't matter how good your spanish or even your aficion...if you can't maintain compas no matter what or how something is sung, you can't accompany. Number 2 is to be familiar with melody and form. Lyrics and actually lead you down the wrong path if you are going based only on words. If some one sang the melody of solea in chinese, the spanish guitarist could still accompany it perfect as weird as that sounds.
Being familiar with more and more letras gets to the heart of what most people mean when they reiterate "listen to cante more"....as norman said, 200 something things should be predictable when performing. Knowing the meaning behind each and every one is great for aficion and enjoyment, but if you are not from the culture already, and you want to understand the musical aspect and contribute, its about the melody and phrasing first.
Without much further and making any aficionados upset, I will submit that some of this pertains to singing as well. I mean, I have met people from andalucia who only because of their birth place, THINK they can sing better than any foreign person. Then you hear them and while they have the accent, with no musicality or compas it can be horrific. A non spanish speaker can potentially do a more convincing job simply learing phonetically (like many opera singers) and get tons of detail of the cante, a native speaker would miss out on....if and only if this person was a musician and good singer already. Of course hearing someone sing with good voice and compas and clear melody of the cante, but with severe accent on spanish (rare that they do this AND get the melody and compas right too), can be just as offensive to an aficionado (even non spanish speaking) as the andaluz cantaor "imposter".
LAst thing I want to relate about my past. I used to do pop/rock in high school and would work hard practicing playing guitar and singing. It turned out that to do a perfect and natural job, I was totally detached from the words, and only the sounds connecting to my hands made things easy and comfortable. I remember learning 'More than words". My friends and i played it and sang it for some years just perfect like the recording. So many teen girls, "what a pretty love song".....well I never realized till someone pointed out, a non musician, that the lyrics spoke of a guy frustrated with his girlfriend for not putting out, selfishly telling her to shut up with "I love you crap" and just get busy. The meaning had no bearing at all on the performance of the song, nor on the emotive qualities it exuded. I further on found myself composing songs with guitar in hand, often inspired by a person or event, and the lyrics also come out. I didn't even understand my OWN POETRY till I sat back and saw what it was the song was saying and often had nothing to do with original inspiration...and this came out of my own head!!! So poetry and music go hand in hand, but are totally separate from each other.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 25 2012 21:06:47
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
May I quote you to our audiences, who also don't understand much of it? They'll love the synopsis. 
Sometimes they sing along and then the jaleo really gets going. What are they getting out of it that you are not?
