Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
My journey into the blues #6 Progress?
Thanks to all those that have been following this topic. It's been a great help.
I sorted out my cheap Fender Tele Affinity at last. I love P90 pickups and found some for the Tele called T90s so I had to give them a go and they are so much better than the standard Affinity. The Affinity has a toploading six saddle bridge, which gets the intonation perfect. The neck is a little narrower than standard Teles, which tends to make it faster.
Mirrored scratchguard was added for more bling.
I've been practising a lot more scales recently and trying to get more meaningful in my phrasing. I think it's coming along, but so hard to tell on my own. Let me know.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to Escribano)
Everything seems to be coming along nicely. A couple of things you might want to try.
Try practicing accelerating your vibrato to milk phrase endings more, sometimes they drift off a little. Probably some kind of systematic approach to get used to being ready to apply vibrato on any note in a scale, in particular note played with the first and fourth fingers can be sluggish.
There is a lot of space now and maybe it would be good to play some rhythm stabs during some of them. Approaching the chord of the moment chromatically from a step above or below. Should give the feel of a brass section filling for you. And this can be a great to help keep your mind on the form and map out where the sweet notes are on the instrument.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to Escribano)
Oh, there sure is progress. Better attack and more space. Listen a little bit to hear if there are some notes that are not necessary. But in general, a lot better. Personally, in a good trad. blues solo, I like: space, a good attack on the notes and sometimes short or very short attacks of many notes, like 2 - 3 seconds of braindamage, because it hurts. And then of course, I like Hendrix 'red house'. But thats another planet.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to machopicasso)
Nice, just keep on practicing and the feel and detail will come by itself. The difference between masters and amateurs is the details. Not only the choice of notes but fine differences in amount of strenght used in plucking the string etc etc. Also experiment on using notes that are not included in minor or minor pentatonic scales(or major(altough these have the same notes in different order)), they give a real unique touch once used wisely. Backing tracks are my fav blues practice, they also help alot with chord tone soloing which is a very useful tool but in my opinion not necessary once there's enough hours to play blues solos by feel, which means the right matching(chord tones) and not matching notes come by itself out of the scale and the notes outside the scale which are less used. In my improvisation I often use basically a chromatic scale but most of the time the notes are the basic scale notes, for example A minor, used all over the fretboard (box soloing is very boring)
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to tele)
I cast about looking for a good version of Red House on youtube.
I didn't succeed but it did give me enough perspective on what the goal of playing blues is.
I love Hendrix as an RandB and rhythm player but if his lead playing represents the goal of aspiring blues soloists then I gotta say that I have nothing to offer in the way of advice.
Maybe just a single question though. 'Really ?'.
I do note that his frequent utter detachment from the harmony has been very influential.
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to tele)
quote:
In my improvisation I often use basically a chromatic scale but most of the time the notes are the basic scale notes, for example A minor, used all over the fretboard (box soloing is very boring)
I agree as I discover other patterns that sometimes unexpectedly fit, until I realise that they are in the same scale but arranged, and therefore played, slightly differently.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Maybe just a single question though. 'Really ?'.
There´s no reason to take the J. Hendrix part of this thread that serious. You may remember that other bluesguitarists have been mentioned before JH in some of the other blues threads. I can right now remember BB King and Peter Green.
When I listen to Red House, I listen to the studio recording from Jimi´s first album. And even though its not conventional, I still like it. And maybe its because I really like his singing.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Yeah Hendrix had a beautiful voice. He had terrific chord fills and could make the guitar sound huge with his sparse but full rhythm playing. But I have come to believe that the reason his lines don't resolve convincingly is because he is lost.
In C. Over I7, I like for a Harmoically functioning sound sound either a pentatonic scale (C6/9 arp) CDEGA or a dominant ninth arpeggio CDEFGBb. For a bluesy sound over I, or indeed anywhere else in the progression, then Eb pentatonic (from C, CEbFGBb) which some people like to call C minor pentatonic.
To turn a pentatonic scale (that's any of the five note scales in common use and includes the dominant ninth arpeggio) you put a note between the minor thirds.
ie for CDEGA there is a minor third between C and A. You can add a B natural to get the hexatonic scale which is common in fiddle tunes and Scottish music and comes up a lot in pop melodies. Or you can add a B flat between the A and the C and you will get the a reduced Myxolydian scale which is used A LOT for blues runs (especially with the Eb as a passing tone).
To turn a pentatonic scale into a bluesy scale then you add a semitone between one of the whole tones. Commonly between D and E you add Eb. Also between G and A the passing tone Ab can be used in melodies in both directions. Or for a tenser sound base lines on the Eb (Cminor) pentatonic which includes the very tense notes of the fourth and the more obvious minor third. If you apply the same logic to this as you did to the C pentatonic then you can make that sound even more bluesy. But you will be creating lines that have clear harmonic function and preserve the structure.
Anyway I could go on all day and the point is to look for observe and evaluate different sounds for yourself. I always work out from the triad and visualise the chord on the neck and try and use fingerings which remind me of the chord on which I am basing lines.
If you mix all the colours in a paintbox together you always get brown. I think that seven note scales when used as if every scale tone is equal (without reference to the chord of the moment) is the very essence of shred and the decline of meaningful improvisation on guitar.
I could have said that you look for stuff in the chromatic scale but actually I would have said nothing at all. It's like giving fishing advice like 'Go to the sea.'
Takes only about 5-15 hours of playing to remember for example the main minor/major scale all over the fretboard, then just remove two notes in correct places and you'll have the pentatonic minor/major
also experiment on adding out of scale notes(like the "blues note" found in blues scale), you can later on remember the extra notes all over the fretboard.
Pattern approach saves a lot of time and thinking. That's why also when practicing chord tone soloing I try to think in terms of patterns. Too much thinking while playing disturbs alot my improvisation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Escribano
quote:
In my improvisation I often use basically a chromatic scale but most of the time the notes are the basic scale notes, for example A minor, used all over the fretboard (box soloing is very boring)
I agree as I discover other patterns that sometimes unexpectedly fit, until I realise that they are in the same scale but arranged, and therefore played, slightly differently.
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to tele)
I don't believe I will ever not see patterns. I am exploring all the positions of the major and minor pentatonics and the in-between blue notes with coloured stickers on my 'learning stick', one of the guitars I don't play much.
Although this will restrict me to one key (as I cannot move the stickers very often), I hope it will open up my approach and I will practise on another guitar. I work against slow 12-bar backing tracks in G, A, B and C (major and minor) so as not to get stuck in a postional rut.
I was thinking of using something like this as a template and then move on to other modes.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
I rarely think in chord changes when it comes to playing the blues. I usually pick a scale , for example C major or C major pent for c maj blues and use additional out of scale notes by feeling, and try to match the soloing to the chord changes.
Naturally over 4th c maj blues chord there's need to pick up notes out of the parent scale (cmaj or cmaj pent) that fit the chord either by feeling or by thinking in arpegios, they should be the three notes of f major and the notes around them that fit as passing notes. If just using every note of a scale over each chord things don't sound so good that's why I try to utilize both choosing the right notes by feeling and occasionally thinking in arpeggio patterns. I've always had preference to soloing by feeling which still mostly revolves around the chord tones to sound best(basically chord tone soloing by feeling). Unfortunately in complicated progressions like in jazz music there's need for much more thinking and eliminating often the scale approach.
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
Tell me Tele what are your preferred scale choices over the IV chord in a C major blues ? Just two should suffice.
And your preferred arpeggios in the same place ?
And what is your favourite lick over the turnaround in a three chord blues ?
And do you have a strategy for chromatic passing tones ?
Do you use the octatonic bebop scale ?
Or having learned all the options did you decide to focus on the major scale and associated 'patterns' ?
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to Escribano)
That's a good starting, especially by just adding two notes and removing the blue note you'll have major/minor pattern which includes also the dorian/phrygian/mixolydian/locrian and lydian mode, it just changes depending on which note of the pattern you use as a base note.
Also you won't have any difficulties to play that pattern in every key once you master it, just move the pattern the required amount of frets to match the key you are playing in. I find the simplest way to learn the pattern is to start it in E or A minor. The pattern is also the same for major pentatonic, you just start from a different note(three frets forward from the minor pentatonic base note).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Escribano
I don't believe I will ever not see patterns. I am exploring all the positions of the major and minor pentatonics and the in-between blue notes with coloured stickers on my 'learning stick', one of the guitars I don't play much.
Although this will restrict me to one key (as I cannot move the stickers very often), I hope it will open up my approach and I will practise on another guitar. I work against slow 12-bar backing tracks in G, A, B and C (major and minor) so as not to get stuck in a postional rut.
I was thinking of using something like this as a template and then move on to other modes.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Escribano
There is a whole lot of information on this chart. I think I know it all (LOLlollol). But no matter how hard I look it doesn't really pop out at me.
What these kind of charts don't really show is time.
Here is a simpler one.
G major stuff (minor third as an approach to major third etc)
G minor stuff (minor third stands proud)
D9 arpeggio ( thats D E F# A C).
A methodology.
Hit a G7 chord in any position (THIS MAPS THE TERRITORY OUT VERY VERY CLEARLY and it is something you already know) play some G major stuff. Play around the chord and you will get a feel for the passing notes and how they function for that chord shape.
Hit a C9 chord. Notice how the top of the chord is a G minor triad. Play G minor sounds and if you like C9arp sounds.
Hit a D9 chord. Start with the root and play up thinking of simply adding notes between chord tones (which is how music works ....tension and release).
Players like George Benson Jim Hall all talk about visualising the chord. The do it that way because it is the simplest and easiest way to remember that works. A chord is one though but when you have built onto it loads of ideas about lines and riffs then that one thought gets pretty powerful.
Every extra dot on that chart makes it less powerful in my opinion.
D
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
I find the pattern useful at least for finding good passing notes between the chord tones and it's useful to also learn to play by feeling, for example playing backing track in G minor blues and use the scale pattern as a guide to solo by feeling. Naturally chord tone soloing approach helps alot to find the right notes but both approaches are useful to master.
Especially when lots of chord progressions use only chords that are already included in the scale. one just has to learn to feel the correct notes for the chords
Sometimes there's even situations where you either have to quickly figure out the chord changes by ear or just know the parent scale where the scale soloing approach can be useful tool.
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: Escribano
There is a whole lot of information on this chart. I think I know it all (LOLlollol). But no matter how hard I look it doesn't really pop out at me.
What these kind of charts don't really show is time.
Here is a simpler one.
G major stuff (minor third as an approach to major third etc)
G minor stuff (minor third stands proud)
D9 arpeggio ( thats D E F# A C).
A methodology.
Hit a G7 chord in any position (THIS MAPS THE TERRITORY OUT VERY VERY CLEARLY and it is something you already know) play some G major stuff. Play around the chord and you will get a feel for the passing notes and how they function for that chord shape.
Hit a C9 chord. Notice how the top of the chord is a G minor triad. Play G minor sounds and if you like C9arp sounds.
Hit a D9 chord. Start with the root and play up it maybe like this.
Players like George Benson Jim Hall all talk about visualising the chord. The do it that way because it is the simplest and easiest way to remember that works. A chord is one though but when you have built onto it loads of ideas about lines and riffs then that one thought gets pretty powerful.
Every extra dot on that chart makes it less powerful in my opinion.
D
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to tele)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
Naturally over 4th c maj blues chord there's need to pick up notes out of the parent scale (cmaj or cmaj pent) that fit the chord either by feeling or by thinking in arpegios, they should be the three notes of f major and the notes around them that fit as passing notes.
Almost anything can work if you really know where you are.
I uploaded a link to some real blues on another thread and on that over the IV chord they played the I minor pentatonic scale.
So my 'go to scale' over F in a C blues would be Eb pentatonic. Not to be weird or arcane but just because that is what is used traditionally and sounds most authentic.
That goes for blues, bluegrass and a ton of standards.
And it's not even remotely hard to remember. Say you are in third position and playing a C bar chord. Well move your hand to an Eb (Cshape) bar chord, bang there are your basic notes , build the rest onto them on the guitar. Much better than putting it down and drawing a chart.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Do you mean Eb pentatonic major?
Also you speak about C blues in this post, do you still mean major as in your first post about this?
that would have the same notes as c minor pentatonic and indeed should sound ok altough I haven't tried it and mostly I play blues in minor pentatonic position with some additional passing notes that don't match the scale so I'm no expert in major blues
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
Naturally over 4th c maj blues chord there's need to pick up notes out of the parent scale (cmaj or cmaj pent) that fit the chord either by feeling or by thinking in arpegios, they should be the three notes of f major and the notes around them that fit as passing notes.
Almost anything can work if you really know where you are.
I uploaded a link to some real blues on another thread and on that over the IV chord they played the I minor pentatonic scale.
So my 'go to scale' over F in a C blues would be Eb pentatonic. Not to be weird or arcane but just because that is what is used traditionally and sounds most authentic.
That goes for blues, bluegrass and a ton of standards.
And it's not even remotely hard to remember. Say you are in third position and playing a C bar chord. Well move your hand to an Eb (Cshape) bar chord, bang there are your basic notes , build the rest onto them on the guitar. Much better than putting it down and drawing a chart.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to tele)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
Do you mean Eb pentatonic major?
Yes I do. Major is always presumed so a C chord is assumed to be a C major etc. If you mean minor then you need to say it.
It is the same as C pentatonic minor but I don't really like to think that way. I like my minor scales to sound more minor.
And on that note in your 'minor blues' what scale do you use over the i (lets say Cm) and which over the iV (Fm) and which over the V (G7b9). Anything can be done of course but what are your first choices. And here is a hint as to my predeliction I wouldn't generall use Cminor pentatonic because it isn't really a minor scale it is Eb pentatonic starting on C and since it is really a major scale doesn't sound very minor at all.
At a jam session people generally call tunes. You get VERY strange looks if you say blues in E minor..
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
Do you mean Eb pentatonic major?
Yes I do. Major is always presumed so a C chord is assumed to be a C major etc. If you mean minor then you need to say it.
It is the same as C pentatonic minor but I don't really like to think that way. I like my minor scales to sound more minor.
And on that note in your 'minor blues' what scale do you use over the i (lets say Cm) and which over the iV (Fm) and which over the V (G7b9). Anything can be done of course but what are your first choices. And here is a hint as to my predeliction I wouldn't generall use Cminor pentatonic because it isn't really a minor scale it is Eb pentatonic starting on C and since it is really a major scale doesn't sound very minor at all.
At a jam session people generally call tunes. You get VERY strange looks if you say blues in E minor..
D.
I would use C min scale with additional passing out of scale notes and fit them to the chord changes . Do you use a new scale for each chord? I have heard of it but never use it as often there's only one note difference in the chord that does not fit the notes of the scale, and choose to ignore the note or match it by ear.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to tele)
Over Cminor as a tonic in the blues. If I were thinking scales then I would use a number of strategies.
But my go to would be the conventions of gypsy jazz.
Over the Cm if I were thinking scales then a minor pentatonic scale with a C minor triad and and added natural sixth and ninth (CDEbGA, this is a five note scale, you can think of it as a melodic minor with no fourth or seventh but that is more confusing ). For Fm the same thing but on F (FGAbCD).
Over the V,G7b9, either G phrygian or Ab diminished or A flat melodic minor. Or if I want to really sound bluesy Eb minor 69 (Eb F Gb Bb C).
Again it only looks complicated written down. If you know what chord you are on then you just visualise the simple triad in the position you are in and play lines round it.
Here is Sidney Bechet using this kind of language interspersed with blues licks. Again not a standard blues. Bechet was in Paris when Django was young.
Its a minor blues which starts on the V(D7b9) he plays Db9 arps and phrygian (Gharmonic minor). Over Gminor tonic mostly Gminor with an added ninth. To get to Cm the same thing G7b9 with G phrygian lines (Cminor) and mostly Cm with an added ninth (C,D,Eb,G).
It seems like a lot but I guarantee he is thinking this only. D7,Gm,G7,Cm. Of course he learned to associate all those lines fills and arpeggios with each of those chords before he started.
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to Escribano)
sounds good. listen to as much muddy waters as possible. also pick apart a few bb king solos.. that guy can do a lot with 6 notes
quote:
Can you explain more fully what you mean by F# over D7? I think I am confused.
think he means play a d7 chord on high strings and put an f sharp on the low e string second fret. happens a lot in the blues (but a lot of them use their thumb to do it instead of fingers)
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to Escribano)
Sorry for being both verbose chippy and unclear.
The D7 chord contains an Fsharp.
The arrival of the D7 on bar nine is the most significant event in a simple blues and also the point where G based scale material says the least. Mostly because the F sharp note is the note which has been withheld until this moment.
Here is a terrible upload where I purposefully hammer out the F sharp. I will try and remember to delete it later but since I have been going on so much and not been clear .....
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
I have heard of it but never use it as often there's only one note difference in the chord that does not fit the notes of the scale,
and choose to ignore the note or match it by ear.
The fun really starts when you stop doing that.
D.
I guess you can call me lazy but I have been practicing some chord tone soloing too.
My question is that how do you choose the notes in between the chord tones for them to sound best, if the chord progression is not based on one scale, for example Am-Dm-Em in which situation one would use mostly the Amin scale for passing notes? Or is there also another established approach to this?
I've heard some people change scales as passing notes for each chord, for example for the above Am scale then Dm then Em, but is there any point in that as there's only one note difference between these scales?
I only understand the basic chord tone soloing approach of using arpeggios over the chords played by the rhythm instrument, but can you then explain me how do you choose the passing notes in between the arpeggio notes? Nobody seems to discuss this online by my google search. Seems important though as using only arpeggio notes can sound dull.
Also G7b9 as a V of Cm blues, can you tell me why there's a note (B) that is not part of Cm scale but it's still called a V chord? I would like to learn some theory approaches to playing but for sure too much thinking while improvising is not my thing.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: My journey into the blues #6 Pro... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
Yeah Hendrix had a beautiful voice. He had terrific chord fills and could make the guitar sound huge with his sparse but full rhythm playing. But I have come to believe that the reason his lines don't resolve convincingly is because he is lost.
D.
Don't resolve convincingly? Are you thinking of something specific or in general? I'd consider that a minority position that couldn't be formulated from a blues perspective. I could see a jazz player feeling Hendrix lacked "education" but even Miles considered Hendrix a genius. the idea that he was somehow lost as an improviser is certainly novel in my experience.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread