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Pratising with metronome
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
I know Ricardo says don't use Flamenco metronomes etc...
But that's OK to say at his level when things became pretty obvious to him years ago, so it get's hard to remember when things were difficult to understand...
Playing Flamenco to a single "tic-toc" metronome requires prior knowledge of the structure of compás IMO.
Grrr!  Ok, here are my thoughts on it. The programmable pattern metronomes/Compas CD/Loops are definantly a GREAT tool to use for checking that your transcription or composition has the right number of beats. I use them myself to check that my stuff "works" , plus it is fun. The compas CD or drum machine/loops gives more the actual feel you have to play against. Also you can program a "special" metronome to do an odd time like 7/8, 15/16, or siguiriyas, and listen over and over to ingrain the phrase. No doubt that helps and gives you something a regular click does not give. But to use that ingrained phrasing, assumes that you understand how to subdivide and maintain tempo.
Here is what happens. I hear a lot of folks practice with the accented metronome or compas CD, trying to "fit" what they already know how to play into the compas. They "aim" for the accents and try not to go "out" by adding/subtracting beats. After awhile they develop the ability to listen to the accents, hit them sort of, and never play "out" of compas. But they don't take care about all the space between the accents, the subdivisions, the groove. Once they are hearing the phrase, and never going "out of bounds", they think they have mastered the compas. If their goal in life is to not be a feelingless "machine", then this loose playing is quite satisfactory.
If you practice with just an unaccented click, one beat to the next, taking care about the spacing between beats, feeling each note going to the next, you learn how to groove. And if the music you are learning, beat by beat, is as you understand it to be in compas, and you take care to not add or subtract notes, then you ARE learning the phrasing. No prior understanding of structure required. You simply learn phrasing by the music itself. As you get more control and speed, you can change what the click "means" (one click every 2 or 3 beats, or feel it as the "up" beat, etc). And you do the subdividing yourself without help, only reference of tempo.
Once you can play an entire phrase or falseta, or entire piece in rhythm, feeling each note in the right place, than it is fine and FUN to double check it with the flamenco metronome or compas CD. You can also work with dynamics and such once you are feeling the time correctly. You can play off the accents, etc, but these are advanced concepts.
The other trap with using the compas CD/flamenco met. is the half compas bulerias. Perhaps it is ideal to have a regular click met., a programmable flamenco met or drum machine, AND the compas CD/loops to cover all the bases. And if Flamenco Master can generate the normal unaccented click (of course it can) than that is all you need. (where is my cut Ron?  ) But I really think it is important to feel each beat and be able to control subdivision BEFORE trying to force your music to fit into the "compas clock"
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 2 2005 16:41:52
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hi Ricardo,
I cannot argue with what you've said...absolutely.
However, (there's always a however in this stuff..LOL!)...
When you are just picking up the basics of this stuff...ie just realized that Soleares, Alegrias doesn't quite fit into the Folk/Rock timing that you are used to playing, then it is particularly hard to "groove" with the tic-toc of a standard metronome.
I understand your idea about playing falsetas exactly as they were written, neither adding or subtracting any notes, so they will automatically fit in to the compás, even though you didn't realize it did, so then you will be playing in time and slowly learn from that.
Yep...that sounds reasonable enough to me.
But in practise, it doesn't seem to be that way.
From a lot of beginners stuff I've heard first hand and via uploads on the Net, notes are missed, added ...and the whole thing is out of compás, whether they are "grooving" or not.
They might be grooving inside their own heads, but it's not Flamenco that would be accepted in Jerez or anywhere, because it's out of step with what everybody else is doing (palmas, baile etc..)
Beginners have a hard enough time trying to cope with unusual chords and fingering on one hand and totally foreign technique on the other, without having to cope with trying to count out 12's and feel the basic accents in the right places!
I have heard very competent Classical players, new to Flamenco play 13 beat Soleares, 'cos for some reason they seem to get stuck on the "3", so add a "silent, non-counted beat" in there so they play the F on 4 and get the rest right...hence 13.
Now that's even when somebody is clapping and counting for them while they play!
So what do I say to them?
Just groove with the inbetween beats?
I'm not knocking you Ricardo, I totally respect and am constantly invigorated by your views...I really like them.
But, what of the folk who can't see you as a teacher every week?
What of the folk who don't have any teacher at all, but are just trying to muddle their way through books etc?
These folk certainly can't groove with the metronome...unless they just wanna do their own thing. LOL!
Most teachers of basic students will clap and count out loud to help the student through a falseta that he's unsure of.
Flamenco Master is no different... it does exactly the same job.
It takes the pressure away from counting, while at the same time allowing you to see and hear exactly where you are.
For the Bulerias 6's...
Well that's maybe a wee bit advanced for basic students, but it's easily enough interpreted by watching what's happening and seeing that the B flat is happening on the 9 instead of the 3.
And also adds interest, to see if you can "square it off" and get it back onto the 3!
I admire your enthusiasm for teaching Ricardo, and I'm sure you are a brilliant teacher..
(I would come!)... but when you are faced with folk who can't count up to 12 and play at the same time...then, frankly a simple metronome is of no use at that particular stage IMO.
Either somebody has to clap and count for them as they play, or they are going to have to use the FM program..
A teacher to clap and count will cost about $30-$40 per hour?
Flamenco Master costs $20 and it's your's for life, to use at any time of the day or night or as the notion takes you!
Just another tool in the armoury, no better, no worse.
cheers amigo,
Ron
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Date Dec. 2 2005 21:05:47
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh)
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quote:
I think one can rely on the accuracy of mets too much. However I find if you practise in front of them long enough they can't help but fall into line with my immaculate tempo and with time they become more accurate
Honestly, that is exactly the right attitude. And from anyone's point of view, that is how it happens! Eventually that annoying click stops leaving you behind and starts LISTENING to what you are playing. It is like magic.
I have not heard people adding and subracting notes/beats so much as rushing and dragging. It is the most common mistake in music, nothing to be ashamed of. I do it all the time, but at least try to be aware of it and fix it if I can. If people were really grooving, it would be easy to tell them "hey, why did you do that note twice, or "you did not hold that chord long enough", etc. Even Paco's Tumbona (out by 3) threw us all off because he GROOVES.
More often (with uploads) the music is correct and sort of lazily in compas, chasing the accents, pushing and pulling so it "works". Some guys are more advanced and you can simply point out certain notes that they are feeling in the wrong place, or a couple of rushed slurs or whatever and the rest falls into place. Others really need to slow down and go one note to the next before adding the 3rd note. And if it is wrong, stop and do it again. I am no different, depends what I am working, how used I am to the type of phrase at hand. I am sure Todd is the same or similar.
And, again my opionion, but there really is no need to count and play, in your head or otherwise. Once you can play some rhythm guitar correctly in compas, and you want to go to dance class, then you can learn how the absract numbers fit the choreography. A lot, maybe most flamenco accompanists of cante, and soloists, have no concept of how their music works out in terms of 12's or whatever. The dance accompanists, yeah probably, but even then, not everything. They NEVER learned it, and certainly did not need to count to learn the compas. So why do we?
People learning outside of a flamenco environment with no teacher, need to simply record themselves and be honest. How does it sound, why exactly does it not sound the way I want it to, and how can I fix it? Feedback from others can be important, but ultimately it is YOU that needs to be satisfied with yourself. Metronome, Compas CD, FLAMENCO MASTER can all help, if you use them correctly and be self critical.
$20? Sounds like a good deal to me. After the Tumbona incident I think we should get one for Paco for Chrismas!
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 3 2005 23:13:24
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Guest
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RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ricardo)
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As usual i you talking a lot of sense Ricardo. one thing i have found with playing to a metronome, is that you have to watch with the mechanical ones, cause some have a tendancy to either slow down or speed up all of a sudden, thats o.k cause they maintain whatever speed they jump to but it can throw you off.
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Date Dec. 4 2005 5:37:07
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but I can't find reference in google. 
Yeah it looked scarry but with nothing else you get on with it. I knew it would be a long hard road. 
