Flicking versus non-flicking rasgueados

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rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Flicking versus non-flicking rasgueados

Which ones do you like more?

0:00 through 0:57 = non-flicking

0:58 through 1:56 = flicking

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2013 3:59:08

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

I prefer sevillanas with the flicking rasgeados
But I like the other one for almost all the other palos.
Sounds more oldschool, and thats the toque I like best!
Very clean playing by the way!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2013 7:41:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Absolutely no doubt. Your non flicking rasgueados are the best. Much lighter and elegant. Your flicking rasgueados put to much emphasis on the rasguados. Sounds more like a rasgueado exercise than music.

The locals here play sevillanas non-flick and they are looser than yours. You kind of flick from the strings. Thats fine and I like it. The locals just make the fingers of their big heavy and dirty tractor hands pass over the strings one at the time. Its kind of nice as well. Its very pueblo andaluz like and I think its the most original rasgueado. It works very well for many other palos and if done well, I really like it. With done well, I mean with lighter and cleaner hands. Kind of city like.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2013 7:53:32

ric

Posts: 84
Joined: Dec. 27 2010

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

non flicking. Nice playing, too!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2013 18:36:08

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Hey Ramzi,

Cool experiment and nice playing. For this palos I agree that the non flick sounds
best. I think the flick seems kinda essential to more driving styles
like Tangos. I was just thinking about this when recording the Alegrias challenge.
I have not settled on a way for Alegrias I think flicking is better but then
I find it harder to get then the golpes in when flicking.

Fancy doing the same for Alegrias ?

Thanks for posting

Cheers

John

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2013 20:29:37

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to johnnefastis)

I actually find that non-flick works on all palos and they work very well in tangos, bulerias and other fast stuff. Its more a matter of how you do it and what you want to express and lots of top players do both kind of rasguados in all palos. The non-flick is less agressive and its also brighter because you very often dont play the deepest strings, but mainly the treble strings.
Something I strongly dislige is thunder flicking rasgueados all the time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2013 15:59:15

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

I think I like them both....
When listening back , to me I find you have evenly balanced the attack of the melody to the attack of the rasgueados ....real clever and consequently, in my opinion, both work well depending on what ,as a player ,you are giving the listener at the time!? (If that makes sense ? )
Which do you prefer Ramzi?

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2013 22:53:36

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Well, for starters, I feel that my non-flicking rasgueados still need much more work. But now that I have been doing non-flicking rasgueados for some months, I feel that they are just as nice as flicking ones, but I find that they suit some palos more than others, & still in certain palos, you can use both... Here are some videos I just recorded using flicking first, then non flicking, in various palos. I tried to play the same thing each time but it didn't match that well.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2013 2:36:01

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Holy damn Ramzi! lol. Great stuff though!

I think for something like Granainas and Malaguenas etc you could get away with softening your non-flick even more, I've heard some great accompanists make it like it's almost a sustained note rather then individual hits.

I use your videos as a base for a lot of stuff by the way, thanks!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2013 2:56:04

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Make them all more mushy please.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2013 3:05:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

Make them all more mushy please.

I agree. or maybe make them lighter. rasgueados can be used as a very dramatic effect, like in a siguiriya llamada, but if you use a dramatic effect all the time, the drama disappears.
Try listening to some of the old rasgueado masters like Parilla de Jerez playing bulerias with Paquera de Jerez singing . Thats all non flick. Very fast, very precise and never pushing more than what is necessary.

And on this solea por medio intro there´s a nice closeup of his rasgueados. And after that, enjoy his wonderfull Jerez playing style. And while we are there.... Joder, la Paquera, vaya cantaora mas flamenca.... vaya voz, vaya compás.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2013 7:50:19

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Ahhhh Ramzi ,just first class playing again as per usual.
This to my ear,which is new to this form of music so not necessarily right ,does show a difference in playing conviction between the the two and therefore a contrast in playing familiarity which appears to suggest the flicked technique is,at this stage , more refined and controlled?
This doesn't mean the non flicking is not good , just less natural/comfortable to my ear.
However , both techniques in the alegria video felt equally good/natural/at home. My preference for the other videos at this stage were the flicking rasgueados .
I think however ,considering your natural playing talent, that the' groove 'will be apparent equally across all palos in no time and if you ask us to view similar recordings in a couple of months , the choice/opinion will be a more difficult one for the listener to comment on.
Thanks again for sharing these...most helpful to us lesser players!

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2013 20:57:31

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Thanks for the comments everyone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2013 16:39:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

Which ones do you like more?

0:00 through 0:57 = non-flicking

0:58 through 1:56 = flicking

actually i would prefer non flicking but a different pattern. instead of startinng w pinky or rinng start i up......iami ......please.

gracias,

ricardo Chief of Flamenco Police

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 16:18:07

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

Which ones do you like more?

0:00 through 0:57 = non-flicking

0:58 through 1:56 = flicking

actually i would prefer non flicking but a different pattern. instead of startinng w pinky or rinng start i up......iami ......please.

gracias,

ricardo Chief of Flamenco Police

Dear Chief
I have also been accused of over using my pinky too.....is there anything I can do to remedy this or, is all lost?

Best

Over pinky

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 18:14:39

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Wow great thanks Ramzi,
I guess we all need to practice both.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 19:03:19

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

actually i would prefer non flicking but a different pattern. instead of startinng w pinky or rinng start i up......iami ......please.

gracias,

ricardo Chief of Flamenco Police

Is you anti-pinky now Ricardo??

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 19:48:32

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ricardo Chief of Flamenco Police

wow friends in high places .....well, speaking as a flamenco police informant , I often,,...errrmm I mean, I have a friend that often does the Sevillanas Rajeo with a,m,i,i, (first ,i, down second i up) and sometimes I ,oops I mean he, could even have a third ,i, back down again...
so a,m,i,i,i,
I know everyone says dont flick the fingers off the thumb like Some do, not me of course , , but I do find it much more percussive this way ..
How does the Flamenco Police view this minor transgression ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 19:57:28

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to El Kiko)

I found all of Ramzi's playing excellent.

I agree with Ricardo completely about the Sevillanas.

The I upstroke on the upbeat is a great idea for pretty straightforward and creditable musical reasons.

The i upstroke favours the trebles, and in particular the first high string, and this is a nice way to to place a light but clear accent on the offbeat. Also the i upstroke will occur on the same part of the beat whether quavers or semiquavers are being played. This gives a certain consistancy and natural swinging quality.

As far as Ramzi'a initial question I think that our preference is not so important for him at the level he is now at. He has enough experience and judgement to do as he sees fit and to trust his own ears.

I am sure that he will do three things next. One will be to transcribe some rasg by a master and decide exactly when cocking occurs and when it doesn't and learn this mixed pattern.

Secondly he will take everything that he learns from doing that a few times (I am sure that he has done this many times already but with his current focus on timbral contrast and immanent mastery of both he will hear more) he will go on to compose some short transition rasg's of his own where he will mix the two.

Thirdly he will prepare them with his normal industry and humility and upload them for us to enjoy.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2014 23:26:20

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Thanks everyone for chipping in, especially Ricardo & David. I'll try the iami pattern to see how that feels. David - it would be awesome if I were to do all that you mentioned. I've been so extremely busy with work that I haven't touched the guitar much since I made these videos. But hopefully I'll get back at it. Cheers & happy new year!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2014 6:47:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

To clarify, I am not "anti pinky" at all. The point of the sound and groove of these horse gallop rhythms is to start on the up stroke for the sound as guitarbuddha describes. Here are options for Rombsix (and anyone else) to try. ieami, iami, iai, peami, pami, pai. All these galloping rhythms produce a similar sounding groove, very different than what Romb was doing starting DOWN strokes. When going medium tempo, iami is most common, when going very quick tempo, iai is most often used. It's ok to snap or flick the iai pattern only the i down stroke that you end on. Normally iami it's not flicked at all. Sevillanas, Fandangos, Tangos, all use the same type of gallop rhythm.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2014 16:40:11

flamencositar

Posts: 76
Joined: Aug. 8 2012

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Ricardo)

^^^^ 4 hours of lessons and discussion on iami and iai with the Chief, and El Chief-O puts it down in a paragraph. Thank you for once again reminding how much of a newbie I am, El Chief-O.

Please excuse me, i'm going to go curl up in the fetal position and come to grips with my suckiness. Good day.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2014 18:44:16

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

In the example below at 1.24 Paco de Lucia has a straight thumb, is he flicking off the back of it, or off the strings, or would this be considered non flicked? The next rasgeo at 1.27 he bends the thumb a little to enable a slight flick?

I find Paco Cepero's rasgeo very inspiring, for example below at 2.26. Is he flicking off the strings a little?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 13:34:28

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to orsonw)

In both of your examples its what I call non flick. Its not flicked from the thumb. Both players are very good examples of this technique.
In fact they are kind of flicked from the strings and its definately what I prefer in most rasgueados.
Flicking from the thumb gives to much emphasis on the bass strings and its often to dramatic and out of context. Its good in Llamadas in siguiriyas and in a few other things.
The problem with the socalled non flick of flick from the strings is that it takes a long time to master and you need a lot of strength in the fingers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 17:02:06

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

How does that "flick from the strings" thing works? You flick against the 6th/5th string like if it was the thumb?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 17:09:44

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

How does that "flick from the strings" thing works? You flick against the 6th/5th string like if it was the thumb?

I don't claim to be an expert but...

I don't think strength is the issue more deliberateness in practice.
For strong picado the best thing to do is very very slow practice with extreme RH stacatto (as soon as one finger plays the next one prepares on the next string to be played).

I have started trying to do this with rasg so put simply place a finger on a string flick off the string and calmly but as fast as possible put the next finger to play ON THE STRING AND WAIT.....WAIT....WAIT... then flick off and place the next one etc etc.

Will make movement more precise with more the energy used going directly into the strings.

So not strength at all just very slow very conscious and directed practice.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 17:20:32

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

Some good flicking going on from Diego in this video.

At about 1.36 as he does the A m i I a m i triplet thing he
really pushes down on the E string so that its almost touching
the A string. It looks and sounds like its to get more flick volume towards
the end of the rasgueo

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 23:25:00

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

The problem with the socalled non flick of flick from the strings is that it takes a long time to master and you need a lot of strength in the fingers.

Agreed.

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 0:22:12

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

The problem with the socalled non flick of flick from the strings is that it takes a long time to master and you need a lot of strength in the fingers.

Agreed.

Define strength ?

I don't mean to be awkward here, I really don't. And I agree wholeheartedly that mastery takes time and commitment.

But strength can mean different things to different people and even the same person at different times. And if the wrong meaning is taken then that can be a problem. Possibly the wrong kind of commitment to the wrong kind of strength can lead to pain or the feeling that surgical intervention is necessary.

So maybe Anders and I are using actually trying to advocate the same thing.

I do genuinely believe that adult males have recourse to more than the strength they need to play guitar on the first day they pick up the instrument and that problems often arise from trying to use more still.

Clarity of sound and clarity of intent and a relaxed yet poised and energised attitude to the instrument are good touchstones. The strength is there already. Focusing on the others may help avoid RSI and diminish arthritis tension and clumsiness.

But here I quibble over words. It is true that both Anders and your good self will have produced results more creditable than my humble self. So I don't question the results but worry about the word STRENGTH.

D.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 0:25:37

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Define strength ?

I guess I was agreeing more about the concept of things taking a long time. Perhaps instead of strength, I would use the word endurance...

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 4:43:07