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Convention and Symmetry
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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 RE: Convention and Symmetry (in reply to johnguitar)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnguitar
A hardwood glued to a thin spruce or cedar top with the edge parallel to the grain is asking for a crack, many old guitars show that. There have been many solutions to this problem: a reinforcement in that area, fans which are placed to reinforce that problem spot, a thinning out of the bridge wings at the end, rounded edges (popularized by Paco Santiago Marin of Granada) and I'm sure other things have been tried. I have angled the edges sometimes but always tried to keep it so minimal as to not be noticeable. Kind of like the skewing of the bridge on a properly intonated classical guitar.
Thank you, John.
This looks like an answer to a question to me.
What you are pointing to is practically based and so true.
While reading it I remembered to have seen a number of guitars with exactly such a crack. ( If I am not mistaking, with all of the cracks located on the bottom side [ treble end ] of the bridge wing.)
May I ask why you kept the angling as minimal as possible? Because of your own aesthetical view or for consideration of customer expectations?
Would it be looking strange to you when the wing end roughly paralleled the lower bout or aimed at the top of the peghead?
Mark,
It was intended to mean that the guitar community will commonly neglect unconventional design. If that can´t be understood as well, just ask again. 
( With the exception of 7, 8 or 10 stringers that were accepted by the classical players. Which, while no true invention, were taken vastly without grumble, whereas to me they do keep looking like superfluous and ugly mutations. - And yeah, cutaways or composite tops, which were gradually accepted too.)
Ruphus
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Date Sep. 1 2013 23:53:41
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Convention and Symmetry (in reply to Ruphus)
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Ruphus, as I often re state regarding the music itself, flamenco is tradition based and very few innovations are accepted. PDL claims to have trashed many more creative ideas than retained for this reason. As far as the instrument itself, we have the same deal. Like the music, "new" ideas, unless very carefully and tastefully implemented are simply "ugly" and disturbing. The taste in my mouth at looking at your guitar pic is very much like that, and I am no jealous luthier by any stretch. Perhaps over time, like with evolution, things will change....but change slowly. Retaining things that work, and discarding things that don't, that's natural selection. Trying to force feed us such a creation now is pointless. A better example....good ol barbero style peg head blanca with your "symmetrical" bridge slanted ends needs to first pass the test. A little photo shop perhaps? I try to imagine in my mind...sorry, still ugly.
Ricardo
_____________________________
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Date Sep. 2 2013 17:45:11
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Convention and Symmetry (in reply to Ruphus)
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Hi Ethan,
Thank you for confirming structural sense of angling! :O)
That top is ancient kauri. ( A pity that the rosette takes a bit away from it. Colour matched, but too slim and vivid.)
Contemporary kauri seems to make for a rich sounding top that sort of combines characteristics of both spruce and cedar.
I have no idea about how ancient kauri may do for soundboard, however.
Possibly surprising though, like it does for B&S. ( Appearing kind of granular and rather lifeless in the hands of the builder at first, but ressembling myrtle performance wise in the end; so I have been told.)
AK however needs to be sized a bit thicker for same statics like with use of common pine.
While about woods, I eyed your handsome maple blanca in the other thread.
I have had really nice experience with maple on a classical and on an acoustic bass.
On the bass the hard version of maple was used, and it left me flabbergasted when I made a small hole into the tail with a hand drill for the strap holder. Never had experienced any wood that hard before!
Just ten days ago I came over pictures featuring splattered maple, BTW.
Have you seen such before?
Really crazy grain, isn´t it?
Hi Ricardo,
That is what I am exactly about.
How one´s eyes get to perceive something because of unrelated preconditions.
Now you like what ought to be ugly in accordance of general guidelines of design and proportion, and in the contrary feel something to be ugly that corresponds to the whole of shape.
It´s kind like with religion.
Followers will insist on the `one and only way´, unaware of the coincidence of their provenance. Had they very banally been born under other geographical terms they would now be swearing just as intensively on something completely else as votiv.
How do you think would traditonal flamencas be looking like if gitanos had been big landowners?
How could your named Barbero now be looking like?
I agree, and am just as glad as you that it actually came to be the sound typically coming from the cypress / spruce combo.
More even, I never got the negra thingy.
May PdL love it, I for one prefer the cigar box charme of nice flappy blancas.
But if flamenco stemmed from rich people who had made luthiers use expensive exotic materials the typical sound of a flamenco guitar could be slightly different today. Probably the soundstage would actually show much less uniform than it is today. As the manifold of materials might have inspired builders for diverse timbres, leaving only in common an edgy note required for a cutting through gigs.
And you could be stating like: "What´s that ugly square there? I try to imagine in my mind...sorry, still ugly."
I know, pointing out the arbitrariness won´t change your view; as you will proudly stick to the good sounding examples that founded your aesthetical perception of visuals in the same time.
And that is alright.
It is like with caviar. It will usually not appeal to who has no preceding experience with it.
... Guess what I am trying to say is that I do well understand how the convention of shape comes about.
And yet my eyes tell me that tapered wings would fit the overall appearance so much better; and the structural effects of it should not be exactly detrimental either.
So, to the purgatory ( <- Attention, poster cought in the act with taking from dictionary!) with you conquistadores! hehehe
Ruphus
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Date Sep. 2 2013 19:43:10
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