tempo and compas

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tempo and compas

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SLJ

Posts: 85
Joined: Jul. 12 2013
From: Houston Texas

tempo and compas

Ok, I am going back to the first exercises in my Graf book, I skipped ahead before , a mistake.
A compass, is keeping within the rhythm, not how fast or slow correct??
Im asking because some of the tiny bit Ive memorized, my video for example,,,, I believe I go way out of compass,, because I am not technically good enough to play at the speed it is represented in.

So Im thinking I can slow it down and learn to get the compas right. I know this must seem like a stupid question,,, but I want to be sure. Im going to freakin learn this

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2013 14:18:40

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to SLJ)

Compas is the beat cycle (12 beats for most flamenco palos) Playing out of compas means you played an 11 beat musical phrase, or 13 beat musical phrase, or anything other then 12 when the compas is 12. It does not have to do with tempo. You can play something rubato(speed up and slow down the tempo for musical effect) and still be within compas.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2013 14:29:38

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to SLJ)

quote:

So Im thinking I can slow it down and learn to get the compas right. I know this must seem like a stupid question,,,

It's not a stupid question, at all. Yes, you can play in compas at a slower tempo. And if playing at a slower tempo is necessary for you to play that palo in compas, then do that first, gradually increasing the speed as you become more proficient.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2013 9:08:21

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

Playing out of compas means you played an 11 beat musical phrase, or 13 beat musical phrase, or anything other then 12 when the compas is 12.

Thats one aspect (although it is perfectly legal to play a half compas of 6 beats in between when the composition demands/allows that). Another aspect of compas (aside from the amount of beats) is how you shape those 12 beats. Every theme/note has it's place and context within the compas and it is perfectly possible to play perfect circles of 12 beats without playing 1 single note "in compas" from a musical point of view.

As far as slowing down is concerned, that's vital to become any good. You should not play any faster then the tempo on which you can still play the most difficult parts, but there is no objection to slow down even more in order to keep as much control as possible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2013 13:04:11

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Playing out of compas

Really it is playing anything recorded by me ...so long as you dont copy me ..you should be in compas ....

Wikipedia ...........from Vulgar Latin compassāre (unattested) to pace out, ultimately from Latin passus step]as oppose to out of compas, played in the manner of El Kiko..including 11 and 13 beat rounds by mistake .....
Further reading ... out of tune ..def . / any instument tuned , or that has recently been played by El kiko...will be deemed now' out of tune ' or sometimes just broken ....

''I really should have a word with Wikipedia ,,,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2013 14:36:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to SLJ)

Yes and no. To be clear...yes you can have elastic tempo and still be very much IN compas. But at the same time, there are cut off limits as far as tempo is concerned, that clearly define one song form from another. Playing for a dancer this becomes painfully obvious as tempo is deliberately increased until the feeling style morph from one form to a new one (example...solea->solea por bulerias-> buleria, or tientos->tangos->rumba).

What that means is this....it's perfectly acceptable to practice slow...but at the point you have it down and get the tempo going to where you need to perform the thing, there will be a lower limit where it simply is NOT the correct "Feeling" anymore (aire, soniquete etc). Doesnt' mean it has to go as fast as the maestro recorded, but there ARE limits.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2013 19:09:58

Guitarsid

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 5 2013
From: Maryland USA

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to Ricardo)

SLJ, is that method book by Graf a valuable one to have in your opinion.
So far I am finding more than enough things to learn online, but I may not proceed in a good progression or sequence of skills etc. I thought maybe I should get a method like that as there aren't any flamenco teachers near by me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2013 22:37:14

SLJ

Posts: 85
Joined: Jul. 12 2013
From: Houston Texas

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to Guitarsid)

yes, I like the Graf, Flamenco book, I have #1, I want to eventually get the second one. I do prefer the cd and book, I got his Gipsy guitar on dvd, and even though it has tab on screen when he plays it slow,,, it is not {for me}good as being able to see it on paper. Somehow, seeing it over and over on paper,, makes memory in roads.
all in all .I like it.
Steve

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2013 13:59:44

withinity

Posts: 180
Joined: Sep. 17 2013

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Compas is the beat cycle (12 beats for most flamenco palos) Playing out of compas means you played an 11 beat musical phrase, or 13 beat musical phrase, or anything other then 12 when the compas is 12. It does not have to do with tempo. You can play something rubato(speed up and slow down the tempo for musical effect) and still be within compas.

Hello , you say that most flamenco palos are consistent of 12 beats , i am a beginner and am started off by learning tangos which i was told is made of 8 beats rather than 12, i was just wondering if i have been within the compas of tangos by playing it to 8 beats rather than 12.

Also , when playing 12 beat palos , would you end the last beat on a third rather than fourth , in order to close the phrase?

Thank you for taking the time to read.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 17 2013 20:10:42

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to SLJ)

Tangos is 4, soft beat 1. Very easy.

Pattern for 12 = 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 accent the 1's

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 17 2013 20:38:12

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to withinity)

quote:

ORIGINAL: withinity

Hello , you say that most flamenco palos are consistent of 12 beats , i am a beginner and am started off by learning tangos which i was told is made of 8 beats rather than 12, i was just wondering if i have been within the compas of tangos by playing it to 8 beats rather than 12.

Tangos is not constructed in circles of 12 beats. The smallest unit in tangos is 1234. In general these units are paired resulting in lines covering 8 beats, 16 beats etc. But you count 1234,1234,1234. You tap beat 1 and 3 with your foot.... 1-3/1-3/1-3/1-3 etc.

BbBbBbBb,AAAA,BbBbBbBb,AAAA

BbBbBbBb,CCCC,BbBbBbBb,AAA(A).

quote:

Also , when playing 12 beat palos , would you end the last beat on a third rather than fourth , in order to close the phrase?

Define what you mean by last beat, a third and a fourth !?

In general the 12 beat palos have melodic lines expanding 12 beats (or if you like 9 beats of melody fallowed by 3 beats of consolidation). The most famous pulse involves melodic accents on beat 3,6,8,10,12 but there are many alternatives. There is lots of variation in both the underlaying pulse and in the way how to drop your melody within that pulse. In general the last phrase (morally) ends on beat 10 fallowed by silence or consolidation.

You can only learn the correct phrasing of each palos and each musical theme by listening to good examples a lot with a good ear and preferably a knowledgeable teacher aiming in the right direction.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2013 1:06:48

withinity

Posts: 180
Joined: Sep. 17 2013

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

Another aspect of compas (aside from the amount of beats) is how you shape those 12 beats. Every theme/note has it's place and context within the compas and it is perfectly possible to play perfect circles of 12 beats without playing 1 single note "in compas" from a musical point of view.

Can you elaborate on this , like is what you are talking about the thing that separates the various 12 beat compas , by playing those 12 beats in a unique manner to a Palo?

If that's correct is it the the offbeats ( i don't know the correct term) what give them there flavor like for example 12(3)45(6)7(8)9(10)11(12), is utilizing your notes by blending them between the timing of the the harder and softer beats complying with the compas?

or is their another way , do i have something confused some feedback would be appreciated.

Sorry to ask so many questions in your thread OP, but i am trying to understand some things and i think the people in this thread can help me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2013 1:16:15

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to withinity)

quote:

ORIGINAL: withinity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

Another aspect of compas (aside from the amount of beats) is how you shape those 12 beats. Every theme/note has it's place and context within the compas and it is perfectly possible to play perfect circles of 12 beats without playing 1 single note "in compas" from a musical point of view.

Can you elaborate on this

It's just like speaking/learning a language. You can not reduce that to "you have to use so many words or syllables". You have to know the words that makes that language and how to combine them to give them meaning and context. On top you need to know how to interpret/pronounce them to make it fit the palo. Did you ever consider "my bonny is over the ocean" to be a bulerias? Still it does perfectly fit the 12 beat cycles of bulerias starting on 11 (dropping the bo part on 12). But i don't think any one will hear a bulerias in it unless it is arranged and played "the bulerias way", like spicing up the part between beat 7 and 11 with a bulerias swing. In above quote i mend to say that when you play random notes, non flamenco melodies, would be flamenco melodies or misunderstood flamenco melodies it will probably not be regarded as (proper) flamenco, not even when it does fit the 12 beats cycle and it's matching accents.

Let's take this line i made up during a 30 minute bicycle ride

---------------0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-/1-----1~2-----------------------------------------------------------1-------------------------
--2-----------------/-2-----1~2~1------------1-----/-1-----1~2------/-2-----/~-----2----
--2-------------------2-----------------/-0--------------0---------------------------------2-----
--0------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------0----------------------------------1---------------------------------------

-----------0~1-----------------------------0------------------------------------------------------
-/3-----3------------------------------------------/3----------------1---0---1---/3~0--1-------
--2-----------------/2----1~2~1-----------------2-------------------------------2---------2---
--0------------------0---------------/2------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------0-------------------------------0-------------
----------------------0------------------------------------------/0--------------------------------

--------------0---/0--x--x------/0--2--3~0------0--2------------------------------------------
-/1---1~3--------0---------0-----------------/4----------4--/0-------------------1~0--------
--2----------------0-------------------------------------------------------------------------2----
--2-------------------------------------------------------------------4--1~4---------------------
--0----------------------------------------------2------------------------------/2----------------
-------------------3-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------0------4----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------4--------/1----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-/0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------2~1-------/1~2------1--/1--x--x--2~1/2-------------------------
---------------------0-----------4----2------4-------0-----------------------------------------
--0----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't think any foro member will hear a soleares in it, although it very much taste like the old
soleares pulse >>->--/>>->-- 1,2-4--/7,8-10--).

---------------0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-/1-----1~2-----------------------------------------------------------1-------------------------
--2-----------------/-2-----1~2~1------------1-----/-1-----1~2------/-2-----/~-----2----
--2-------------------2-----------------/-0--------------0---------------------------------2----
--0------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------0----------------------------------1---------------------------------------
...1....and..............2......and............3......and......4.....and............5..........6....and

-----------0~1-----------------------------0------------------------------------------------------
-/3-----3------------------------------------------/3----------------1---0---1---/3~0--1-------
--2-----------------/2----1~2~1-----------------2-------------------------------2---------2---
--0------------------0---------------/2------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------0-------------------------------0-------------
----------------------0------------------------------------------/0--------------------------------
...7......and...........8.....and.........9......and....10.............11.....and..........12....and....

--------------0---/0--x--x------/0--2--3~0------0--2------------------------------------------
-/1---1~3--------0---------0-----------------/4----------4--/0-------------------1~0--------
--2----------------0-------------------------------------------------------------------------2----
--2-------------------------------------------------------------------4--1~4---------------------
--0----------------------------------------------2------------------------------/2----------------
-------------------3-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...1.......and.......2.................3.................4..................5..................6...................

-------0------4----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------4--------/1----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-/0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------2~1-------/1~2------1--/1--x--x--2~1/2-------------------------
---------------------0-----------4----2------4-------0-----------------------------------------
--0----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...7.....................8.....................9.................10................11.............12............

An experimental flamenco dancer might actually be inspired to use it as a soleares in Am.
In that case i might throw in some similar sounding escobillas like

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-/1~0---------------1--------------1-------1-------1~/0------------------0-------0------0----
---------/2--1--/2--------------------------------------------2--/1-----/1------------------------
-------------------------/3--2--/3------/2-------/1------------------4----------/2----/0---------
--0----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/3--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So partly it is up to the notes, partly it is up to the ears of the beholder...still above lines are a flamenco/classical crossover at most, just fun but no real flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2013 13:42:38

withinity

Posts: 180
Joined: Sep. 17 2013

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

quote:

Also , when playing 12 beat palos , would you end the last beat on a third rather than fourth , in order to close the phrase?

Define what you mean by last beat, a third and a fourth !?

In general the 12 beat palos have melodic lines expanding 12 beats (or if you like 9 beats of melody fallowed by 3 beats of consolidation). The most famous pulse involves melodic accents on beat 3,6,8,10,12 but there are many alternatives. There is lots of variation in both the underlaying pulse and in the way how to drop your melody within that pulse. In general the last phrase (morally) ends on beat 10 fallowed by silence or consolidation.

You can only learn the correct phrasing of each palos and each musical theme by listening to good examples a lot with a good ear and preferably a knowledgeable teacher aiming in the right direction.

Well with the third and the fourth i was basically asking about ending on the 10 like closing the section. I think beats and bars are confusing me in some way and the overall structure.

I'm still getting my head around this, and even trying to figure out the right questions to ask in the right way in order to obtain the information i need, i have a good feel for Rhythm though am not educated in music theory.

I feel like their is a missing link and i am on the verge of graspsing somthing. Only now am I learning the terms of flamenco although i have played stuff in resemblance to compass without even knowing what i'm doing (but it feels right), you know just in the way of getting things stuck into your head that you listen to and end up mimicking subconsciously in the way of rhythm, like playing something in the same manner, but not really understand its value or how it fits in. (hope that makes sense)

Anyway , I'm still kinda wrapping my head around your Glorious replies just wanted to let you know it is appreciated. thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2013 7:38:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: tempo and compas (in reply to withinity)

quote:

ORIGINAL: withinity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

quote:

Also , when playing 12 beat palos , would you end the last beat on a third rather than fourth , in order to close the phrase?

Define what you mean by last beat, a third and a fourth !?

In general the 12 beat palos have melodic lines expanding 12 beats (or if you like 9 beats of melody fallowed by 3 beats of consolidation). The most famous pulse involves melodic accents on beat 3,6,8,10,12 but there are many alternatives. There is lots of variation in both the underlaying pulse and in the way how to drop your melody within that pulse. In general the last phrase (morally) ends on beat 10 fallowed by silence or consolidation.

You can only learn the correct phrasing of each palos and each musical theme by listening to good examples a lot with a good ear and preferably a knowledgeable teacher aiming in the right direction.

Well with the third and the fourth i was basically asking about ending on the 10 like closing the section. I think beats and bars are confusing me in some way and the overall structure.

I'm still getting my head around this, and even trying to figure out the right questions to ask in the right way in order to obtain the information i need, i have a good feel for Rhythm though am not educated in music theory.

I feel like their is a missing link and i am on the verge of graspsing somthing. Only now am I learning the terms of flamenco although i have played stuff in resemblance to compass without even knowing what i'm doing (but it feels right), you know just in the way of getting things stuck into your head that you listen to and end up mimicking subconsciously in the way of rhythm, like playing something in the same manner, but not really understand its value or how it fits in. (hope that makes sense)

Anyway , I'm still kinda wrapping my head around your Glorious replies just wanted to let you know it is appreciated. thanks

As it turns out, you will encounter the frustrating "half compas" phrase in which case you realize, fundamentally, compas is not really "12 beat cycles" at all and your intuition of rhythm (feeling phrases that are just "right") was probably more correct all along. As I advise all beginners, learn from the maestros, exact phrases, compas strumming patterns and techniques directly from the music. THAT is the method of learning. Once phrases are internalized you start to see how to put them together logically so there is a flow and you never need to count past say 3, if at all. Each form has it's own set of special phrases that truly define it, not the math of meters and beats alone.

After you are actually playing some phrases correctly, you may encounter one of these crazy dancers one day and THEN you will see why the counting to 12 thing helps to map your phrases to the dancer's movements. Till then use your ears and imitate the masters.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2013 11:58:58