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RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
a general approach would/could be to play the melodic minor a fifth above the root tone of the chord ie G7 = D melodic minor C7 = G mel minor F7 = C mel minor Bb7 = F mel minor so it's cyclic....in fourths...same way chords are moving..
providing none of these chords have any alterations...b5 is ok
provides forward motion but guess depends how much time you have and the harmonic rhythm ....
for the A resolve using the tonic mode
all these scales end up as a lydian dominant sound....
guess it's one approach...favoured approach by jazz musicians...not sure how it would work in a flamenco setting...
here is a vid demonstrating the sounds over the chords apologies. it kind of sucks as a demonstration ...only had a few minutes to put together...but gives the idea of the sounds..
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
Hi Anthony,
One simple approach is to look for chromaticism (one fret of difference) in a few variations on the chord sequence you've posted. By "variation," I mean being selective about which chords are made into 7ths.
For example, if you make the B flat a 7th, you get this chromaticism:
G7: B natural C7: B flat F7: A natural Bb7: A flat
(And if you resolve to A7, you can extend the chromaticism down to G.)
This doesn't mean just modifying an A Phrygian scale to the corresponding notes because there are other alternatives (the respective chord tones, other scales, etc.)
I've made all the chords 7ths just to keep my example more in line with what you've posted. To my ears, implied harmonies are best used in moderation. You said "...spice it up..." and I think that's a good metaphor. Insofar as accompaniment, I hear a lot of younger players using 7th chords right from the beginning, and I think they usually work better toward the end, in order to build up the tension before resolution. It's similar to using facial expressions and/or tone of voice to emphasize your words. If you do it too much, it just seems affected.
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RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
Good Post Leo,
As you know, I'm not a theory man so i can't really help. What i can say is that I also find these type of progressions difficult to "spice up. If it's in the context of bulerias, solea por bulerias or tangos etc, I tend to just stick with A phyrigian. Especially if it's improvisation we are talking about. But it's cool when players are comfortable enough to throw in other scales and land on the right note at the right time. And still make it sound flamenco.
Onother way i try to spice things up is to approach the "spicing up" from the angle of the chords instead of the scale. Straight improvisation over progressions like G7 C7 F7 Bb A, IMO can feel a little uninspiring to solo over. Especially when the chords are changing rapidly. So If i have a designated solo section in a piece of music, I try to come up with a progression that Inspires me personally.
For example, your progression suggests Bulerias, tangos, solea por bulerias etc.. within flamenco. I Just made a quick recording and picked some chords that work with A phrygian. I will up load it in the audio section. I improvised over them for 5 min so you can hear how i approach ideas. The chord progression could be used for any flamenco palo in A. Maybe it will give you some spicing up ideas to go with the other posts from the guys here
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From: Wooli, NSW Australia
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
Just had a play with this progression . I had to play g minor for the one chord for this progression to make sense to me . The major 7 was just to happy for me . Then yeah the a phrygian was good , just kept looking for that c sharp . D minor pentatonic for some fun .
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: AlVal
a general approach would/could be to play the melodic minor a fifth above the root tone of the chord ie G7 = D melodic minor C7 = G mel minor F7 = C mel minor Bb7 = F mel minor so it's cyclic....in fourths...same way chords are moving..
providing none of these chords have any alterations...b5 is ok
provides forward motion but guess depends how much time you have and the harmonic rhythm ....
for the A resolve using the tonic mode
all these scales end up as a lydian dominant sound....
guess it's one approach...favoured approach by jazz musicians...not sure how it would work in a flamenco setting...
here is a vid demonstrating the sounds over the chords apologies. it kind of sucks as a demonstration ...only had a few minutes to put together...but gives the idea of the sounds..
man i gotta practice this stuff...
Good post... it's hard for me not to get into melodic minor passages when playing over dominant chords because of jazz. Melodic minor doesn't have to sound jazzy though as long as you don't make it "swing". I think it's perfectly fine in a flamenco setting.
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
Thanks for the post Anthony...good idea to open up different viewpoints of improvisation.. found another 30 seconds to spare so played around with Tangos Instead of thinking lines i looked at chord alterations and put it in the same type of phrasing that you may find in a Tangos letra...Harmonicallly speaking... this is fairly improvised...i have'nt played it before but worked on it for about 15 mins before pressing record
Playings a bit tenative and only have a macbook to record on it's 1 30 in the morning..COLD..a few thousand km's south of Kris... the guy upstairs has'nt started banging his feet yet... but hope this helps in some way...
quote:
it's hard for me not to get into melodic minor passages when playing over dominant chords because of jazz. Melodic minor doesn't have to sound jazzy though as long as you don't make it "swing". I
it's also at the heart of Brazilian Music. What phyrgian is to Flamenco. The Lydian Dominant appears in alot of street music and is the 'Blues' sound of places like Salvador... Thank you for the comments Dyingsea I hear that sound quite a bit in some modern flamenco...it can sound very Flamenco in the right hands...but yes the natural thing is to 'swing' those notes if you have played jazz guitar... Nino Josele [among others] does this so mindblowingly well... A complete player...as well as one of my favourite flamenco's he also is my favourite current player of jazz standards...
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RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
quote:
ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
Hey guys, I would like some help with soloing over progressions such as this one:
G7-C7-F7-Bb-A
I know I can just use A phyrgian/F major but are there other ways to really spice it up and exploit all these dominant 7 chords?
i like what norman says first...think all in one key but focus on those accidentals he mentions. Also I agree with the lydian dominant as a much more colorful approach that works as per Aival. There is a step between these two extremes.
Use G mixolydian over the G7 ( key of C major) then C mixolydian (key of F) then F mixolydian (key of Bb) then Bb lydian to A (key of Dminor). So in effect you phrase using mixolydian mode on each chord but think more like you are just resolving V-I for each chord in the keys I describe. Each I chord becomes the V chord of the new key. Thats how the cycle of 5ths chord sequence works anyway.
I prefer not to think so much either modes OR keys, but more simply the number of sharps and flats as we move through the chords. You move from no sharps and flats to one flat, then 2 flats, then back to one flat, then the one flat plus the C#. That way I am not boxed in when improvise and free to explore the neck targeting only a couple of sweet notes rather than think scale patterns. I helps to understand what the flats are and to know that they are part of the fingering where the tritone interval occurs. That way as each chord change comes you can move your tritone position on the neck down a fret to exploit the key change...while not worrying so much about the other natural notes you might play. HOpe that helps man.
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From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
whoa! thanks for all the help, guys! all this stuff totally blows my mind!
al, thanks for the video demos! the second one sounds a great idea to use when there's no singer or maybe to tie up a falseta.
i really suck at soloing so i cant wait to try out these ideas. i figured if i just hit a few "clever" notes, i'll sound a lot better. thanks for pointing those accidentals, norman. i don't know how i never noticed that chromaticism before!
as for the context, you know when they sing, " le le le le le cachito de pan"? since we don't have a singer, we're just taking turns soloing over it. and yes, the chord movement is rather rapid at a fast tempo.
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From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
quote:
I prefer not to think so much either modes OR keys, but more simply the number of sharps and flats as we move through the chords. You move from no sharps and flats to one flat, then 2 flats, then back to one flat, then the one flat plus the C#. That way I am not boxed in when improvise and free to explore the neck targeting only a couple of sweet notes rather than think scale patterns. I helps to understand what the flats are and to know that they are part of the fingering where the tritone interval occurs. That way as each chord change comes you can move your tritone position on the neck down a fret to exploit the key change...while not worrying so much about the other natural notes you might play. HOpe that helps man.
oh man. i get what you mean but i'm picturing trying to do it.
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RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
Ok, so a lot of new ideas here swimming around in my head now. I'm going to write them out for my own, and hopefully other's, benefit and to make sure I got it right.
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From: Washington DC
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
F mixo has A natural. I said Bb Lydian ......also A natural and E natural.... Bb mixo not good only Bb Lydian dominant works other wise stick w A phrygian for both chords (Bb-A)
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RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to Guest)
quote:
so played around with Tangos Instead of thinking lines i looked at chord alterations and put it in the same type of phrasing that you may find in a Tangos letra...Harmonicallly speaking... this is fairly improvised...i have'nt played it before but worked on it for about 15 mins before pressing record
I really like your falseta Alval. Sounds fresh and fits tangos well!
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RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to Ricardo)
I saw the title of this post and thought ...yeah ..., I been there before ,,,,,long ago , avoid it ... but youknow I cant ...anyway ,A long time ago now I was talking to jazz guitarist called Howard Roberts (who you can find on you tube and is a great thinker and teacher ) about the improvising thing and he mentioned to me that really 'within that idiom ' you can justify any note against a dominant chord, , with only one exception ,,,....
of course you would be starting ...root ., .7b9.,.9.,.7#9 ..3rd etc ... until eventually you reach the exception which is the major 7th..and yet he said you could still justify it as a ' passing tone ' if needed .. this leaves you with the full chromatic scale , of course it depends on how you play it as to what you will achieve .
A week or so later I remember , based on that conversation , what notes can you justify against a dominant chord , I wrote a slidey type of blues/swing thing where every beat was about a semitone away from each other , and yet followed the 3 chord blues rule ...so the root was ..eg A7, Ab7, Bb7...and then change to D7(or 9)Db7and D#9 ,,,etc etc so therefore it would cover any discrepancy of the justification of notes, bearing in mind that each chord was only one beat long ....at ..lets say120 bpm ..typical swing ..... It gives you the whole chromatic scale ,,,
ok try not to dwell on the Major 7th , but apart from that , no one can say you are wrong , in theory , only they like or they dont like ....as always ......
This tune was called "Diarrhoea blues '....f course because you can just push it all out and never be wrong ....( no copy exists,but I recall the saxophone player really went to town on it ....).... because basically ....against a bunch of dominant chords ..you can play whatever you want ,,,be inventive ...use motifs , shapes ..put your personality on it ,,,
the only thing I see on the sequence you mentioned ,,,is one of the first things in jazz stuff ....( I know its not the same , but harmony is harmony )
is that the 3rds and 7ths define the chord , strangley enough ..not the root ...not until the end anyway .... So .....G7 ...gives you an F and and B note ....find them two then .....slide down 1 fret ......both notes ....and you have E and Bb ..for your C7 chord ......(although you notice now that the 3rd and 7th are the other way around ....slide down another fret ....to , Eb and A ...etc ...this happens basically because of the cycle of 5ths you are following ....etc etc ....
Now I know that its flamenco you will be playing and not swing ... but tricks are tricks and what you would do with this lot is change the notes before the chord changes
I do not know how many beats you have per chord, but lets say ......2 bars each chord .....so G7would be 8 beats long ... ....anything you want for 1 and a half bars , in the last 2 beats you would aim for a E , Bb kind of thing( anticipation ) and the chord would then catch up to you (C7) .......everyone thinks your cool , cos you predicted the future and it sounds great ....you get the girl etc etc ............
Of course its a practice thing ,,,,above all ...put your personality on it ....really ..........
I see this is worse to write than play .....think about it for me ....maybe 5 mins ........
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords Thanks Kris....work in progress... Really enjoyed your uploads.. Great phrasing-and awesome tone...always a treat to hear you play.
Anthony I figured the chords are moving quickly by the nature of the progression you posted.. Somehow I just thought tangos... but by the time you think up a fifth, melodic minor etc the chord has already gone...and the music is lost
The Lydian dominant approach works well with more static, or longer beats on each chord but maybe to much information if the chords are moving quickly? But you can use the approach to color the standard voicings...some nice chords to be found. You can always arpeggiate as an improvisation as opposed to just playing a melodic line....adds another approach....
In the end I guess phrasing is what will make it sound good....like in Kris's uploads....
Norman and Ricardo both offer a way to get those sweet tones there in a more transparent way... The tritones in each chord seems a logical place to start to me... Maybe looking at the chromatic movement on each string might add some clarity ..as suggested..
@ el kiko...wow Howard Roberts .. Guru for a generation of us...agree totally with the chromatic approach. No wrong notes just unintended notes ... Figure the resolution or "correction" is a fret away in either direction...
Personally always found cyclic dominant chords hard to play lines over unless they act as either a tonic or as a dominant to a tonic...
Good luck!
another 10 seconds of spare time..
Exercise for Left hand movement from b5 to 7th of each chord
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
I think transcribing tons of great solo's is pretty surefire.
Knowing what notes can go where doesnt really help you if your phrasing is crap.
Transcribe!! Sing the solo. Take in the phrasing, the rhythms, the dynamics, the tone, these things are as important, if not even more important than note choice. Start simple. There doesnt have to be this huge mystery about playing over a chord changes. If you can manage to land on a chord tone on a downbeat once in a while, then you can pretty much play any notes. Dont waste your time learning melodic minor arpeggios in all keys or whatever. Spend more time asking yourself what you want to say, and how you want to say it. Thats what music really is.
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to ToddK)
Great posts here. 'Justifying a note'... Sounds funny don't you think?
AlVal - I loved the lines on your first upload.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToddK
I think transcribing tons of great solo's is pretty surefire.
Knowing what notes can go where doesnt really help you if your phrasing is crap.
Transcribe!! Sing the solo. Take in the phrasing, the rhythms, the dynamics, the tone, these things are as important, if not even more important than note choice. Start simple. There doesnt have to be this huge mystery about playing over a chord changes. If you can manage to land on a chord tone on a downbeat once in a while, then you can pretty much play any notes. Dont waste your time learning melodic minor arpeggios in all keys or whatever. Spend more time asking yourself what you want to say, and how you want to say it. Thats what music really is.
The winning answer IMO.
That's why I suggested the Eb, it's simple. Harmonic rhythm is probably fast so who has time to think about changing sharps and flats. Just hit notes and hope for the best. If you're lucky it'll get better.
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RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to at_leo_87)
Speaking of rhythm and frasing I would love to here anthony play these chords . Each different rhythmic aproach I take to these chords leads me in a different direction . My latest noodling has found me in G phrygian .
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From: The South Ireland
RE: Soloing over Dominant 7 Chords (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
Knowing what notes can go where doesnt really help you if your phrasing is crap.
Transcribe!! Sing the solo. Take in the phrasing, the rhythms, the dynamics, the tone, these things are as important, if not even more important than note choice.
Totally agree.....sing the solo , even in your head .....and rhythm can be more important that anything ,,, .. make the phrasing better....it doesnt need a lot of notes or even speed or anything just a few things but at the right time , and yes.....
ToddK 's post is the one that sums it all up ........(damn it , wish I'd said that first..........)
Printable Version
thanks for pointing those accidentals, norman. i don't know how i never noticed that chromaticism before! 
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