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Cante accompaniment, who to learn from?   You are logged in as Guest
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HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

Cante accompaniment, who to learn from? 
Hey there guys, just wondering whether I should learn cante accompaniment with a guitarist with no singer around..
or learn it by practicing with a singer about what to play, when to play etc.

all bearing in mind that I have no knowledge about cante accompaniment.

cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2011 3:40:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
The best is to work with a singer.... Thats what its about,..... no?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2011 8:20:08
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Actually, I'm not sure working exclusively with a singer is sufficient. In my limited experience with accompaniment, I've found that non-guitarists (i.e. dance instructors and singers) aren't always adept at explaining what the guitarist needs to do re: accompaniment. So, I'd recommend both 1) working with a guitarist who knows how to accompany and 2) working with a singer, so that you have an opportunity to apply that knowledge on your own. If there's no reason to choose, then I'd try to learn from both sources.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2011 10:50:38
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
Will be calling a singer to have some lessons.
Is it wise to do it as my level tho?
I'm just a beginner with an understanding of compas..
Still don't have lotsa fancy techniques..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2011 1:31:40
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
u can prepare yourself for a month or 2

go to our cante thread...get familiar with ...typical chords used in different palos, the strumming or phrasing...that will help alot

theres lots of people at your level having a go...its only through practice and trial that you will eventually start to develop an idea...he might be able to tell you the chords but i am not sure how much a singer can teach you about the strumming and phrasing...and not sure how patient hes going to be...

he will sing and might even tell you the chords...you still going to have to work out the rest on your own or from a guitarist or cds...so use the cant thread

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2011 2:05:03
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to Florian) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

he will sing and might even tell you the chords...you still going to have to work out the rest on your own or from a guitarist or cds...so use the cant thread


the cante thread doesn't have examples of chord fingering isn't it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2011 2:17:36
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
...u mean like videos of the chords used ? theres some...not very many but i think there is some Jason and a few others had some videos with the fingering...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2011 2:22:13
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
just make sure you call a female singer and pick a cozy place to rehearse.
I´m sure you´ll be fine with the fingering then
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2011 17:58:12
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
i´m sorry. back to subject. is there a local peña in your area? or maybe you know a singer who has a little project with another guitarist. You can ask them to be present while they are practicing. you can learn very much from just watching the guitarist accompany close to and in real life and (quietly) playing along with his playing


for me what really made me start with cante stuff is this video:



after watching it I played along a couple of times after seeing this guys chord progressions. Then I was a little more confident with my solea to call a singer. When I played with a singer I had some basic stuff and she told me all sort of other variations.

About the video: this is a solea de alcala I think. These are turkish people and I really really like it. the singer has allot of feeling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2011 18:07:16
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to machopicasso) 
quote:

Actually, I'm not sure working exclusively with a singer is sufficient.


If you find a singer who is able to play a least little bit of guitar accompaniment then it is absolutely sufficient. Nothing's better than a singer who knows how to accompany himself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2011 23:56:29
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to Rmn) 
quote:

I really really like it. the singer has allot of feeling

the part I enjoyed the most on this vid at 2'33 when she jalea "ole!! toka itano!... "
IMO, it would be better to play a solea por buleria with the click instead of a solea. Sounds very artificial to my ears! but colors and taste

quote:

all bearing in mind that I have no knowledge about cante accompaniment.

Strange
With all the material available on this foro. Plus if I remember well you said you subscribe to differents online teachers...claiming they have awesome stuff on there (now i doubt of that statement!).
Man I hope you're not just in a consumerism attitude coz it's a waste of time and money IMO
BE FOCUSED!

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2011 12:44:24
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to mezzo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mezz

Strange
With all the material available on this foro. Plus if I remember well you said you subscribe to differents online teachers...claiming they have awesome stuff on there (now i doubt of that statement!).
Man I hope you're not just in a consumerism attitude coz it's a waste of time and money IMO
BE FOCUSED!


The thing is, if I learn their way of accompanying that singer for eg the 2 mins of cante video, do I just repeat what they play everytime someone sings eg a solea?
I believe it's more than just monkey see monkey do in cante accompaniment,
I want to understand why they go to a certain chord sometimes n when they use another chord why they stay on a certain chord for x amount of time in one compas while other time they change several chords in one compas.
Does it matter? Or they just doing what they please?

This is what I want to learn, knowing what to play and when to play it.

Thus back to the question.. So it's better with a singer? Who can tell u which chords to use, and when.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2011 0:31:53
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
quote:

I believe it's more than just monkey see monkey do in cante accompaniment,
I want to understand why they go to a certain chord sometimes n when they use another chord why they stay on a certain chord for x amount of time in one compas while other time they change several chords in one compas.
Does it matter? Or they just doing what they please?

This is what I want to learn, knowing what to play and when to play it.

Thus back to the question.. So it's better with a singer? Who can tell u which chords to use, and when.


yes but you have to start somewhere, somehow...monkey do monkey does is the perfect place to start

many of the things you will learn and pick up with experience and much much listening to cante cds...there kind off is no way around that...even a singer teacher cant take you around that..

i think its one of those things where you just need to start...dont over-analyze at first or try to understand all before you begin, there will be plenty of time for that...if you get the basic accompaniment chords structure for any palo is a good start...its something that you need to do anyway weather you have a good understanding of why or not

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2011 8:44:54
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to Florian) 
quote:

monkey do monkey does is the perfect place to start


This is the approach I am taking.

There are so many variations it's overwhelming. Just have a look at Norman's site the solea page alone has what seems like hundreds of variations, how could I think to learn all that before I begin?

Of course we should follow the singer and the professionals are very good at playing with a singer they've never met and following them. But for beginners like me I just work with the singer I've got, learn their way. As I play with more singers I begin to learn more and following gets easier but we have to start somewhere.

Ask the singing teacher if he has any singing students, someone you can work with. A singing student will often be very keen to meet a guitarist to practice with. I am fortunate in London that I have met a couple of good Andalusian singing students, we can work on material together, choose something we both like and copy the masters. Of course having lessons with professionals helps and I even work with professional singers sometimes but then there's no time to practice or go through things it's just in at the deep end!

Here I am at the London Peña last week, this is a Montse Cortés solea de alcala "Lloran Al Lao Mio". Very much learnt 'monkey see, monkey do' by listening to the record and also going on youtube and studying a few live versions by her with various guitarists and then arranging it to suit the singer and myself.
There are mistakes and poor technique and Juan and I perform with minimal cante knowledege but the result is not too bad, the audience was moved and importantly we are enjoying it and we are learning.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2011 10:21:21
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to orsonw) 
Here we are at yesterday's rehearsal trying a Granaina "y no llegaste a quererme" copying Miguel Poveda and Chicuelo live version.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=172796&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

We'll do this publicly next week, well actually we already did it publicly last week but without ever having practiced it together. I had a rough idea of the chords and went for it just following. But it was good to get together yesterday and work it out, maybe that's not flamenco but us beginners have to start somewhere! I think my ability to follow is helped by starting with this 'monkey see, monkey do' method.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2011 11:05:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante accompaniment, who to lear... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
simply put, you can't learn how to accompany singing without a singer. And you will be limited if you are learning with only ONE singer as well. The only way is to get out there and make mistakes and learn from them. Safest is to play for a dancer that sings so the letras are all mapped out and you have to repeat. Later you can try with only a singer who is good and improvises. Learning only from a guitarist can leave having learned almost nothing about cante accompaniment.

As far as what to play on guitar, start by focusing on ONE guitarist whom their style of accompanying you like. Do what he did, focusing also say one song style with different singers. Melchor, Morao, Moraito, Cepero, De lucia, etc all played for many singers. More modern players are not so great to emulate because they are associated with less number of singers usually. (a fault of the practice of modern recordings where they contract several different guitarists for one singer). For example Tomatito with camaron then all the camaroneros is not much a stretch in terms of variation. Nor Vicente with pele and a couple others or Chicuelo with Barcelona people. Even though they are all great, you might not be learning the point of how to deal with very different singing styles.

When I say learn from the guitarist, I mean just the chords and answers to the cante, not the Picados or falsetas. Just get the jist of what you need in terms of song forms from what they do. Compare to even older players (Ramon Montoya) and modern players (Diego del morao say) and try to understand what they ALL are doing the same. That is important before you start trying to do it yourself.

Finally if your compas is shaky, don't waste the singer's time. Make sure you are on point with your compas and can't be thrown off, because your focus of accompanying will mainly be tonos, timing needs to be a non issue before you begin. If you are not sure of this, that is what the cante accomp thread may help you with to save you the embarrasment or frustration. Better to upload with a pre recorded singer and get critic the foro then to have a singer tell you you are not ready.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2011 22:23:01
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