Working with instructional books

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michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

Working with instructional books

Well during the last 10 years i bought nearly 20-30 instructional books (GGM - Juan Martin - Encuentro series - Faucher/Worms-Collection - B. Steinmann and many others), a nice collection, but i'm not always happy how i used them. There are many ways to work with intructional books, some people just pick out what they need for studying a certain palo or a special technical skill. some other have more discipline and really work through from first to the last page. I'm an intermediate player who wants to learn whole compositions, not only mixing falsetas on the spot. but this is a difficult transition for me. each time i want to learn a specific tune, there is a part where my technique is not good enough and the other 80/90% are OK, but it kills the motivation and finally the whole project. so i decided to go back again to my intructional basic-books (hopefully for the last time) and work it out again, but instead of studying a little bit here and there, i work the whole book from beginning to the end with more discipline, each time i think the outcome is OK i make a video/audio-take, i put them together to make a documentary of my practice sessions, a kind of flamenco-diary just for myself, to have "physical" result, it works well for the moment and it's fun btw.
Does anybody wants to share experience with instructional books or simply hijack this thread?
no problem

michel

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 7:22:05

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

Hey Michel,

I have the exact same problem. I have the Juan Martin Bk1 and the GGM Bk1.

I was making some progress with the Juan Martin Book but when I came to the tunes with 'e a m i' style of rasgeo I got stuck.

So I've taken time away from the books and I'm having some good instruction on how to deal with the technique issues. Once the technique is OK I'll go back to the books and I'll deal with the next obstacle in the same way.

It seems kind of logical to me to do it this way but we've all got our own learning styles so experiment and find a way that works for you.

Maybe a few classes will get you on to the next level.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 10:55:18

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

Well these books should be seen as a start but they wont make you a good player. You just get some basic knowledge on the way. You need a real teacher.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 11:11:14

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

thanks guys for your replies

@sean
i had the same problem with the JM book, he teaches interesting falsetas for all levels and suddently comes this continuous e-a-m-i downstroke rasgueo, completely inaccessible to the beginner/intermediate player without explanations how to learn it. ricardo gave good explanations on this subject in previous threads, practicing i-e-a-m to have the index on landing on the downbeat, tony arnold gave the advice to practice just the contrary e - i movement without guitar (index flexing out and little finger goes back simultaneously and vice-versa, ramon montoya did this)
By the way i recommend you to buy GGM Bk 2, it contains nice short pieces to connect or some funny to learn and play.

@doitsujin
agreed, the experience beeing in front of a teacher is not exchangeable. the real good teachers i met are all too far away to meet them weekly and it requires a certain budget, other teachers i met were somehow to "kind" and told me my playing is on a good way if i'd simply work of my a*s. BTW it wasn't clear, in my initial post i didn't only mean basic instructional books but also falseta collections for all levels.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 11:51:51

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

michel,

I don't really see why you need a book?

I mean you have all these good Flamenco guitarists playing on YouTube with shots of them playing up close.

Technological ways of slowing stuff down...

Also any questions you have, you can ask on this Forum and be answered by experienced Flamenco guitarists....

What more could anybody possibly need to get the hang of basic stuff..except for a pair of ears and a guitar and a sense of willing?

Anyway, you shouldn't be working on whole compositions of recording artists at your stage.

Learn some falsetas you are comfortable playing and combine them together to make your own arrangement.

Your best teacher is yourself IMO.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 12:15:06

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

mean you have all these good Flamenco guitarists playing on YouTube with shots of them playing up close.

Technological ways of slowing stuff down...

Also any questions you have, you can ask on this Forum and be answered by experienced Flamenco guitarists....

What more could anybody possibly need to get the hang of basic stuff..except for a pair of ears and a guitar and a sense of willing?

your right learning by watching and listening is the fastest way but not the easiest if your technique is not complete - another aspect is my job where i'm in front of screen nine hours a day, so i tend to avoid computers in the evening, but i've allready learned much here in the foro and via YouTube, i learned many tanguillo falseta by ear also, i try to learn through different ways.

quote:

Anyway, you shouldn't be working on whole compositions of recording artists at your stage.

maybe but i will certainly not follow this advice

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 12:48:12

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

quote:

i learned many tanguillo falseta by ear

Can you upload a few then?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 12:52:27

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to Ron.M)

well i have to prepare a meal now but i'll record something as soon as possible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 12:56:46

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

quote:

I don't really see why you need a book?

The JM book's quite good to introduce the player to some graded short pieces. It doesn't cover technique though.

It's quite handy to have the written music/tab plus a disk and because the pieces are quite short you can learn a new tune each week.

It all adds up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 13:26:56

minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

i have a few methods too (too many) ,
so i decided just to write out the things from various books and try to learn them, not focus on the whole book.
i find them inspirational, and i guess many of us , dont have access to a top teacher in the flamenco idiom.

having just been to spain, i must say that having lessons for a week totally inspired me and has given me a lot of direction and shown me the importance of various things i coulndt do on my own, its always great to see the teacher perfor mat the end of the week too.

we should all upload more "work in progress" for critical feedback , ill get the ball rolling this week, by uploading some difficulties i have.

learning a complete transcription, how does one memorize all the notes i have a dog of a time memorizing a few bars, especially if its syncopated or a technical hurdle like a right hand roll.

what are some must learn pieces ? panaderos flamencos? paco penas torque flamenco piece ?

im intersted to what u folks feel is important to learn.

im focusing just on 2 dance forms this month Solea , and solea por bulerias.

and when i want to relax i can just noodle for 10 mins, id like to get a function comass to the fandangos going !! help anders !

technically i need to clock up hours on rh rolls , and just tap all rhythms and internalize the pulse , should take 20 years.

nice ramble there sorry folks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 14:42:55

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to minordjango)

huh sorry Ron this was a long meal

i put a tanguillo in the upload section, i wasn't working on tanguillo at the moment, so it took time to remember and record it.

quote:

we should all upload more "work in progress" for critical feedback , ill get the ball rolling this week, by uploading some difficulties i have.

exactly minor django it would be interesting to see what other mates are working on.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 29 2010 12:40:09

yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

I think its really hard to learn the techniques like thumb picado and arpeggios without a good teacher. You need more than a few pictures or videos to get the right hand position for example, and of course ever guitarist is different.
But if you just started guitar I think you could learn a lot from those instruction books.
I started with JM books too and I think they were really helpful to get started with flamenco and learn something about the forms,compas and some simple song that can sound very flamenco allready!

I never finished any instructal book too the last page though

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 1:59:39

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

OK michel...I listened to the Tanguillo.
Pretty good, but gets a bit "scrappy" in places and needs tightening up.

A good "complete composition" for you to go for IMO would be Paco Peña's "La Vieja Rica de Cadiz", which you should be able to do 100% with some work and is a good rhythmic "tight" number for you to work on.

A fellow countryman of yours (frhout) was interested in this piece a while back.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=63428&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 2:27:40

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to Ron.M)

Thank you very much for the feedback Ron

i agree it's still scrappy, maybe a stronger thumb bassline would connect it better. i'm looking forward to listen to "La Vieja Rica de Cadiz" i think i never heard it.
using a slowdowner turned out to be THE advice!
i never did this 'til know but i will use this tool much more in future.

BTW i learned that tune from "grandes guitarras del flamenco - melchor de marchena" the title is "la hija de don juan alba"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 3:27:53

minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

good points Yohan, on a recent trip to Granada it was great just saying to the teacher please play like say a rasquado , and really studying what he was doing with the positioning of his body in relation to guitar , and the movement.

and also hearing and watching a fine player play complete pieces (Live inur face) its so inspirational and really helps when we are sitting back transcribing something or working through a trtanscription, i started transcribing parts of Faustino Nunez cd undrstanding flamenco, i mean its based on rhythm which is what i need, just rhythmic falsettas and the old fill here and there.

im also working through and just devoting time to one palos solea por buleria.

the next id like to try is the beginners challenge on the bulerias, im really really trying hard to play slow super slow and count everything - to internalise the pulse.

Ron ,
why do you choose ?
Paco Peña's "La Vieja Rica de Cadiz"

just out of interest any other suggestions for some other folk around here?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 4:04:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

quote:

each time i want to learn a specific tune, there is a part where my technique is not good enough and the other 80/90% are OK, but it kills the motivation and finally the whole project.

This problem will continue forever until you let go of the concept that you MUST get 100% of a piece A-Z. I dont' want to sound like a broken record, but you are wasting good learning time that way.

Let me ask, when you practice that Fandango of Paco, you contantly run the entire piece, or do you spend like your entire day of practice on just one falseta that you are having trouble with? I mean one falseta you sarted and stopped and kept going like "oh well" but that was the "copla" falseta. That like the one of 2 most important falsetas in the piece you just dropped the ball on.

What I mean is can you now upload your playing of JUST that ONE falseta for us? But just that one falseta perfect and clean and in rhythm, at a close to normal tempo? Accomplish THAT and you have actually done something in your flamenco learning.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 5:12:59

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Let me ask, when you practice that Fandango of Paco

maybe a confusion, i don't practice a Paco Fandango, but i understand what you mean. in general i practice falsetas and i try to connect them like others too. the next time i'll work on a whole piece i'll try not get stick in the first few bars, but atleast having an overview by working all the sections of the piece like an exercice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 6:32:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to minordjango)

quote:

Ron ,
why do you choose ?
Paco Peña's "La Vieja Rica de Cadiz"

Mainly because michel already has the basics for it and the tune MUST be played rhythmically or it sounds bad...so good training...

At the end of the day I agree 100% with Ricardo.

Flamenco is all about chords, rhythm and falsetas.

Every falseta you can pull off reliably and cleanly is worth 20 you can't...or a whole badly played composition.

Work on single falsetas, rasgueado and rhythm and forget the compositions.

You can even try and work the same falseta idea into other palos or try doing in a different key for fun and experimentation.

3 or 4 good solid falsetas can be your reliable friend for dance classes, solo playing, group playing....anywhere..

A composition is really only a string of falsetas when you think about it.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 6:44:38

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Working with instructional books (in reply to michel)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michel

quote:

Let me ask, when you practice that Fandango of Paco

maybe a confusion, i don't practice a Paco Fandango, but i understand what you mean. in general i practice falsetas and i try to connect them like others too. the next time i'll work on a whole piece i'll try not get stick in the first few bars, but atleast having an overview by working all the sections of the piece like an exercice.

the guy with the Fandango is "michall" not "michel". Made me also confused.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=132313&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
you guys are playing tricks on us dont you...

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 9:14:11