Suggestions or techniques for SUPER fast dancer accompaniment!

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Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

Suggestions or techniques for SUPER ...

I am working with a dancer that debuts this month at The Fountain in LA, and her speed is just amazing - and I am just not that good yet - and she is just going sooooo fast in her subida that my fingers just do NOT move as fast as her feet.

It's straight 'strumming' accompaniment (with accents, of course), so it's nothing intricate, and I'm basically just trying to train my index finger to brush up and down lightly, trying 'the claw' as a teacher from Spain I work with showed me (he's out of town).......ANYTHING, but man... I KNOW I am off, but I simply cannot find a technique that allows me that kind of speed to stay with her!

Any suggestions to try? Anyone know of a video or youtube where someone is using something simple but quick! I am working on her speed with the Flamenco Master metronome, alegrias, set at 90.

HELP!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 7:59:45

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

How much strumming do you do with i down and p up? You can get that a lot faster than ii. And you can transition that to tresillos really easily.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 8:11:50

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

That's almost 'the claw'; index and middle down, thumb up, but I'm not able to add any accents, and it almost becomes a raqueo at that point...

ugh...hard! I can handle it up to about 85 or so, but she's moving at about 90+, and it doesn't seem like much, but THAT is a big jump on the Flamenco Master! And 85, I'm accenting and can do light golpes still. At 90...I'm done...lol

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 8:20:33

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

Ramon,

Why not use muted "scratching" as in Bulerias, using ami held together.
You can get a good rhythm with accents with that and it's easy to change to a rasgueado.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 8:30:30

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

Just play less, and concentrate on feeling the compas. If you mentally stay with the compas, you can jump in with whatever you can grab. Maybe just the accents. That may be a good way to practise getting the tempo to where it needs to be. Then add strokes as you can. You don't have to play as many strokes as she is nailing. Keeping it together in your head is the thing that will allow you to stay with her. You might also try tapping your foot every other beat as opposed to every beat to keep your head in the compas. I found that helpful during speed ups. If you have palmas, it's easier.

Now could you please explain how to develop the skill of dropping into hollow waves without getting clobbered?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 8:42:32

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

All techniques I've been trying; any and all fingers, hit it only on accents, etc... I guess it's just practice and practice, but even just flicking my index finger in the air doesn't seem to generate that kind of speed! Maybe I'll just go try 85, 86, 87, 88...etc.

Surfing? lol...I first surfed Pipeline at 15, so I learned quickly - to survive. My older brother had 9 years on me, and he was always like' "it's eeeeaaaasy". YARIGHT! Almost drowned a few times. which cracked him up.

The secret? From paddling-to-feet in ONE move, and paddle aiming AT the shoulder - not down the face... Just wished I'd started flamenco at the same time... :-(

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 9:03:23

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

Pipe? Wow. Much respect. I get terrified just looking at pictures of the North shore on big days.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 9:14:14

val

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:12:30

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 9:16:07

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

Val,

That's about 1/4 to 1/3 the speed I'm going in her subida. Download the Flamenco Master that's offered here, set the alegrias on 90, and you'll see where I'm at.. My little metronome only goes to 220, and my online '12 Count Metronome' program goes to 280bpm - and that's pretty easy. I don't know how many BPM we're at at 90 on the FM program. Like 320bpm?

But thanks for the link. I want to look for closely at the other stuff later :-)

R

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 9:55:43

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to val)

i dont know what to suggest...practice alot and concentrate alot

start slow and as you get past your confort zone keep taking it up by a litlle bitt..but mentain compas

even if your improvement is not obvious to you, there will be improvement

its not so much a phiscal thing but a mental thing imo..your brain is not yet trained to make your hands function that fast because its way out of your comfort zone

so do brain exercises too where u have the compas at ridicoulos speeds and u try to do palmas and count along with it, mute your strings and strum along with it etc..

speed starts in your head..if you can think it u can do it, if you are able to visualise it... just like picado...initialy it might refuse for a while lol but if you have a clear picture of exactly what u are aiming for it will eventualy come out just as u visualize it

another very important thing...have what you are going to do worked out and practiced in detail before hand...for example when she gets to the speed that is pushing you do the strumming in a way u practiced a million times so that u not having to concentrate on that and just focus on the speed

so work out the absolute best combination u get the fastest speed at and have each strum and chords you are going to use memorised so that its second nature...takes a litlle bit of the edge off for you so u can focus on her speed

whats her aim to finnish the whole repertoir in 5 minutes ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 10:04:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

Thinking bulerias, you say 320 bpm...i think half time so we are talking strumming down up 16ths at about 160 bpm....that is a fast buleria. Can the palmeros keep up at that speed? I can go that fast so long as the palmas are with me.

One dancer I worked with went so darn fast at the end, the palmers could not keep every beat and ended up doing accents only (12 3 6 810) which was quite crazy condsidering who the palmeros were and everything (total pros from Spain...)

(Probably around 400 bpm for the quarter note....or my foot going close to 200 bpm thinking half time) Obviously that passed my speed limit for normal up down strumming so I released myself into just feeling the beat with my foot and strumming continuous tresillo type rasg. until he ended. That seemed to work actually, but it was not real clear rhythm IMO, but because we had the palmas it worked.

I would work hard at knowing EXACTLY your speed limit, and asking the dancer if she can keep it there. If she refuses, then try my trick, just keep the foot accenting and do tresillos without thinking how it is subdividing. Good luck!

Who is the dancer by the way???

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 10:10:34

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

At that point it's Bulerias de Cadiz, she probably wants you to count it in 6s instead of 12 and tap your foot every other beat like someone said. With that amount of speed sometimes it's more effective for the guitar to just cut out and let the dancer do a solo where she can mess around with speed and accents.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 10:14:11

val

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:12:19

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 13:07:22

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to val)

When it gets too fast I just do the tresillos and wait for the cierre. Only really sounds good for one or two compáses though, gives the feeling of a climax. Don't know if I've ever done one that fast...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 14:10:39

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

Thanks to all for the input. I'm taking bits and pieces of it, but I think it's as Florian says; Just start slow and just keep pushing the tempo on the metronome, faster and faster until I find a technique that works at high speed - that doesn't sound 'all the same'. I CAN do palmas up to the '92' (360-ish bpm?), but after that, it's just unreal fast. A big part IS mental; accepting that speed, feeling it as well as hearing it.

So I started in at about '80' (300-ish BPM) on the Fl Master metro, and now have it up to 91. I worked it out that I think her subidas are at about 350-360bpm - and it's probably a sustained minute at this compas. The hand falters or the mind wanders at this speed, and Elvis has left the building, baby!

It's a LONG alegrias including 2 escobillas... I haven't seen the whole thing, as I've only worked sections of it with her, but I know the piece she is roughly working from, and it's over 12 minutes long.

Her name is La Reyes, and she debuts at The Fountain's 'Forever Flamenco' show, in Los Angeles, this May 17th:

May 17th:

Artistic Director: Antonio Triana
Guitarist: Antonio Triana
Guitarist: Benjamin Woods
Singer: Jesus Montoya
Dancers: La Reyes, Vanessa Acosta, Timo Nuñez

http://www.fountaintheatre.com/perform.html#Flamenco

She'll be working with incredible people. Me? I'm just a student, but I'm honored that she has worked so hard with me to get me up to speed so fast. I love being able to play for her dancing, as her energy is amazing.

PS...She's also a great singer, too!

Thanks again, everyone :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 17:08:37

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

Good luck Ramon and congratlations, sounds like a great gig and great experience...let us know how it went

btw what is you name ? trying to look for you in the program

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 21:59:10

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Florian)

Great stuff in the video! Is that you accompanying?

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2009 22:53:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramón

Artistic Director: Antonio Triana
Guitarist: Antonio Triana
Guitarist: Benjamin Woods
Singer: Jesus Montoya
Dancers: La Reyes, Vanessa Acosta, Timo Nuñez

Oh, why not ask ben what he does?

With Jesus there it should be no problem to follow the palmas. But ironically, he was one of the palmeros I was talking about that could not go that fast....and he was not alone either. Nobody could do it it was ridiculous. Just the accents.

For the record, I would say the dancer I talked about was just a little too crazy for our tastes, but we pulled it off somehow.

This guy is super fast, here is martinete, but I have seen him do a longer faster build for bulerias...can't find it on youtube though.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2009 9:55:46

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9HttiWJQ

clomp clomp .. clomp... sometimes faste clomping sometimes slower but with a little more perispiration and throwing of wet curled long hairs..

Whats the deal? clomp... clomp... clomp...

(clomp)

(EDIT: I am drunk.. dont reply to this post... )

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2009 11:57:52

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

(EDIT: I am drunk.. dont reply to this post... )

i hope you will still be drunk when you read this. doit, please post a video of you dancing a super fast alegrias!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2009 16:00:02

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

ME IN THE VID'??? Nooooooooooooo...lol

Me in this show at The Fountain? Noooooooo...lol..

I'm a student, but I did a show with La Reyes and other very good dancers for a couple months here in San Diego. We just finished 2 weeks ago, but we were called "the best, true flamenco show south of LA (Benjamin Woods told us that!), so I was honored to be the guitarist for this show.

La Reyes asked me to play when she was putting this together, and I said that I didn't feel I was ready (I'm just coming up on my 3rd year of flamenco accompaniment, but only 'dabbled' playing solo stuff for a few years before that), but she pushed me to rise to it. Scary...but very rewarding and fun. I REALLY like playing true flamenco - accompaniment. I started FAR too late to aspire to be a great guitarist - but I can be a good accompanist, be a part of something rather than sitting at home - and it's pretty awesome to have an amazing dancer waiting for your fingertips to create for them. :-)

My 'real' name is Rand Hogen, basically just a surfer in La Jolla, building guitars, and learning to accompany.

Remedios Flores, pure Gitana (who's late husband was an amazing guitarist, Rodrigo Flores):

http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=136552&highlight=136566

She also took me under her wing to sing for me and work with me, and she gave me my Gypsy stage name 'El Caña'. Here's a flyer for the show we were doing...

Working with Reme' is great because, as a true Gyspy cantaor, she rides in and out of compas, rides notes, makes up letras as she goes, etc. It's a REAL challenge to stay with her, but she encourages me with looks and lots jaleos...

Thanks, everyone... Oh! I'm up to 92 on the Flamenco Master!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2009 6:11:56

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

I was gonna ask what are you studying and WHY?

Stick with it, you'll never know where it'll take you!

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2009 6:44:51

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to John O.)

Excellent Rand, keep us posted how it goes mate, itl be greate..

Much sh*t

( its funnier in english )

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2009 7:36:37

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Suggestions or techniques for SU... (in reply to Ramón)

I saw this on esflamenco.com: "Guitarra y palmas super rápido." The tempos range from 200 to 320 beats per minute--it could be useful. Here's a link:

http://www.esflamenco.com/product/en51278135.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2009 9:03:49