Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Yamaha CG171SF Modification Recommendations *
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
  
superboo
Posts: 25
Joined: Oct. 22 2008
From: San Francisco, CA
|
 Yamaha CG171SF Modification Recommen...
|
|
|
*i know that this is very long and i apologize if my questions come off as annoying or ignorant -- i'm very new. i greatly appreciate the efforts of anyone that sticks around long enough to read and even reply to my questions. i've already learned a massive amount here and look forward to learning and contributing more. though small, this forum is an excellent source of information.
i'm a very fresh beginner and have ordered a cg171sf which should arrive tomorrow. i understand that this is a cheap, entry-level instrument and that i shouldn't expect amazing performance from it. i don't plan on upgrading to a "handmade" guitar for at least 2-3 years, so i'd like to upgrade it within reason for better tone for the time being.
as i understand, this guitar has fairly poor quality tuners, strings, as well as a plastic nut and saddle. during my search for a local luthier, i found a shop that has "the best guitar tech in the state" (hawaii). after extensive reading, i've considered having him upgrade all of these aspects of the guitar. i spoke with the shop, they said it would be no problem to install a bone nut/saddle.
but before i do all of this, i'd appreciate some direction so i don't spend/modify more than necessary. i'll list tentative modifications and the thought process behind them. please feel free to reply with any corrections, thoughts, or recommendations.
*note - it seems that some of the cg171sf's have rosewood fingerboards, others (newer?) have ebony. some of my decisions were based off of the prediction that i might receive one with ebony. if i end up with a rosewood fingerboard, then i'll have to reconsider decisions that are purely aesthetic in nature. my highest priority is tone.
bridge - http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Classical_guitar_bridges/Classical_Guitar_Bridge.html
the stock bridge is rosewood according to specs i've seen online. i don't know how this affects tone. but aesthetically, i'm considering replacing it with this ebony bridge. if i my fingerboard is rosewood, i won't change to ebony unless there's a significant improvement to be gained.
nut/saddle - the shop said they'd change these to bone for me. initially i considered ordering pre-fab or blank tusq, but it's easier to have them do bone. plus i've read about "notching" issues with tusq that steer me away. oh, and should i request the luthier to "compensate" any or all of the string positions on the saddle?
tuning machines - http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_slotted_peghead_tuners.html
regarding prices, it seems that Gotoh and Schaller are my sub-$superexpensive options. beyond that, i don't have a clue as to what i'm comparing. slotted or solid peghead? gold? brass? what are lyre/lyra/hauser? what's an acceptable turn/tune ratio? comparing pictures, slotted is what i see most often. aesthetically speaking again, i *guess* i'd want ebony knobs to match the rest, but that's very insignificant if there's something else i should be considering. do the prices i see include tuners for both sides of the headstock or do i have to order two sets?
initial setup + routine maintenance:
i plan on having this luthier perform a full setup. the problem is "when?". i live in hawaii, where the max humidity each day ranges from 70-95% or higher. the guitar is coming from a warehouse in kansas (dry midwest region). i've read that changes in humidity greatly affect guitars. how long does the guitar need to acclimate? would it be wise to wait until after this period of time to have the setup (and modifications) performed?
i read a piece of advice that i really liked: use a set of popular strings as a baseline and just try a lot of different strings to compare. with that in mind, i ordered a set of d'addario ej45 pro arte that i plan on installing upon arrival. but i've also read that strings, especially nylon, tend to stretch quite a bit for a period of time after installation. i imagine that this can affect the setup process if they're still too new. so what i came up with is to install the d'addario strings immediately, and (try to) play the guitar a good amount over the next few days. i should have my first lesson this saturday, and would drop the guitar off at the luthier after for setup/mods. is this approach appropriate or even necessary?
i've gathered that i need to clean the instrument routinely. i'm not completely clear as to how, though (this plagues me with my electric as well). someone told me a polishing cloth + lemon oil anytime i finish playing and recommended a dunlop cleaning kit to use once a month or so. any thoughts?
the guitar will live in its specific yamaha case seen here. should i bother with hygrometer/humidifier (please consider local humidity)? if so, any specific recommendations?
i thank you all for your time.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 28 2008 10:30:42
 |
|
Pgh_flamenco
Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
|
|
RE: Yamaha CG171SF Modification Reco... (in reply to superboo)
|
|
|
I wouldn’t change the bridge. Call Graph Tech--they make Tusq and probably have a drop-in saddle and nut for your guitar. Changing the saddle will give the best performance and it is also the easiest to do. A good tech person can alter the top of the saddle to adjust the intonation. The nut only affects the tone of an open string--anytime you fret a string the nut is blocked and has little effect on tone, volume, etc. Tusq has a uniform density, a high quality bone saddle is more expensive than you need and a lower quality bone saddle will be difficult for the tech person to work with and will not have the same uniform density of Tusq.
You can contact Gotoh. They might have a set of tuners that is easy to install. Ask if the screw holes line up. If they do you can install them yourself.
Humidity won’t be a problem with this instrument. Also, transferring a guitar from a cool, humid environment to a hot, dry one is bad for a guitar. Transferring from a hot, dry climate to a cool, humid climate is never a problem. You won’t have to polish this particular instrument and you won’t need a hygrometer/humidifier. I think the CG171SF is made of plywood and has a polyurethane finish. It’s maintenance free except for cleaning the frets and fret board with steel wool (rarely).
You will have to experiment with strings and develop your ear and your ability to play. The tone is affected by how well you play.
As soon as you get it, tune it and start playing it. You can have it setup immediately if you like. This is a good model guitar and many here wish it was their first as we were stuck using classical guitars as a substitute. Post again after you receive it and we can discuss the string height, etc.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 28 2008 11:00:44
|
|
at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
|
|
RE: Yamaha CG171SF Modification Reco... (in reply to superboo)
|
|
|
funny, i just played this guitar two hours ago at guitar center.
i actually think you don't need any of these modifications yet. maybe down the line, upgrade the saddle and tuners. when the guitar gets to you, you will see that the tuners aren't that bad and they work fine. if you do choose to upgrade, the price includes both sides i believe. i would just leave the strings on too, until they die. ej45's are a good place to start. and you wouldn't need any compensation. most nylon strings don't.
as far as switching the bridge to ebony, most bridges aren't made of ebony. in general, they're made of rosewood, including thousand dollar guitars.
for cleaning and maintenance, just wipe down the strings and fretboard after you're done playing. wipe down the guitar and occasionally use a polish.
i really like this one:
http://www.stringsbymail.com/catalog/accessories/details/18AP01.asp
you'll pick up more cleaning tips along the way but you don't have to worry about anything serious right now.
if you're worried about acclimatization, leave your guitar in it's case the first day it gets there before you open it up for the first time. if anything was to crack, it'd be the top since it's solid but i wouldn't worry too much.
in general, i would take upgrades slowly. you'll recognize the difference and appreciate the guitar more.
good luck!
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 28 2008 14:21:59
|
|
superboo
Posts: 25
Joined: Oct. 22 2008
From: San Francisco, CA
|
|
RE: Yamaha CG171SF Modification Reco... (in reply to superboo)
|
|
|
so i have a new guitar!
there doesn't seem to be much to say that ChiyoDad didn't already cover in his comprehensive review. i'm not very experienced, but i think it's a beautiful guitar.
nut/saddle/setup - i plan to leave my telecaster with the guitar shop (it's overdue for setup) on my way to my first flamenco lesson. at that time i'll inquire about their prices for fabricating/installing a bone nut and saddle during setup for the flamenca. if it's reasonable, i'll just have them replace both. i'll take ChiyoDad's advice and wait 2 weeks before taking it in.
tuners - i've decided to hold off on new tuners, at least until i'm more familiar with the instrument. it will be a nice reward to upgrade them later on after i've learned to play a bit. then again, the tuning knobs are the only part i really dislike. how feasible is it to change just those? are replacements typically a universal fit? for anyone that's wondering, the distance between each of the posts on the stock tuners is 35mm.
action - i don't have precision calipers or anything like that. but my tape measure shows it to be just a hair over 3mm at the 12th fret, top of the fretwire to the bottom of the 6th string. less than 1mm at the 6th string, 1st fret. i'll make sure to post to this thread again after two weeks to see if it's moved at all.
i tried to tune it with a korg chromatic tuner, but ran into some difficulty. certain strings, like the 1st and 4th in particular, were difficult to tune. for example, when i thought the 4th string was getting close to the correct pitch, it showed my D to be a bit flat. i gave the tuner a bit of a twist and the reading showed G (?!) intermittently back and forth with D. the same behavior occurred with the 1st string showing E as well as A.
after using the tuner, 5th fret harmonics (i think this is the term) from string to string sounded ok. but when doing the same thing using the 12th and 7th fret from string to string, there wasn't much consistency at all. according to ChiyoDad's serial# breakout, this guitar was was built on august 1st, 2008, making the strings 3 months old already. could these tuning issues be the combined result of 3 month old strings, need for setup, and residual effects from shipping? or perhaps i'm doing something wrong? i have a set of d'addario ej45's i can put on.
@ChiyoDad - i was "flown here, not grown here", but the taro patch line still made me laugh :). also, according to your breakout for the serial# scheme, my august 1st '08 guitar has a 3 digit production number. this would suggest that the last 4 digits are reset to 0000 from time to time. would you happen to know how often that is?
overall, i'm impressed in every way by this $300 instrument. i actually paused for a moment of shock after playing the first few chords. my gratitude goes to all of you for your help in this thread and the rest of the members of this forum as well for helping me get off to a decent start. thanks!!
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (1)
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 29 2008 21:08:52
|
|
ChiyoDad
Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area
|
|
RE: Yamaha CG171SF Modification Reco... (in reply to superboo)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: superboo
... the tuning knobs are the only part i really dislike. how feasible is it to change just those? are replacements typically a universal fit?
Knobs are molded on so you'd have to change the tuners if you don't like the knobs.
Most replacement tuners have the same distance between the pegs. The screw holes are not always in the same spot; so you'd have to fill the old holes with putty, let them dry, then drill new pilot holes. Not worth the trouble given how functional the current tuners are.
If you decide you want to upgrade them, I've found tuners by Rubner or Gotoh to have the best values.
quote:
ORIGINAL: superboo
action - i don't have precision calipers or anything like that. but my tape measure shows it to be just a hair over 3mm at the 12th fret, top of the fretwire to the bottom of the 6th string.
A StewMac string action gauge is a nice thing to have. $19 plus S&H.
Give Bob Colosi a call (http://www.guitarsaddles.com/). Send him your saddle and he'll make you a bone saddle and ship it back via USPS Priority mail. That should set you back by about $30. If you want, have him make one from fossilized walrus ivory. I'll probably do that someday. Still don't feel a need to though.
quote:
ORIGINAL: superboo
i tried to tune it with a korg chromatic tuner, but ran into some difficulty.
I get the same problems with all my nylon-stringed guitars. Tuning my steel-string acoustic is less problematic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: superboo
@ChiyoDad - i was "flown here, not grown here" ...
Haole!  
quote:
ORIGINAL: superboo
... also, according to your breakout for the serial# scheme, my august 1st '08 guitar has a 3 digit production number. this would suggest that the last 4 digits are reset to 0000 from time to time. would you happen to know how often that is?
That should be the unit number of the guitar for that day. Not for that specific model, but (I believe) for all the guitars that were produced at the factory. I don't know how often it gets reset.
Good to hear that you're happy with the guitar. Keep your receipt since you're covered by a limited lifetime warranty from Yamaha (but you probably won't need it).
If you decide to branch out from Flamenco, look-up braddah Ozzie Kotani. He teaches ki ho'alu and (unlike other artists) he did most of his early recordings on classical guitars.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 30 2008 16:46:40
|
|
superboo
Posts: 25
Joined: Oct. 22 2008
From: San Francisco, CA
|
|
RE: Yamaha CG171SF Modification Reco... (in reply to superboo)
|
|
|
i've noticed that most people seem to recommend ordering nut/saddle replacements online vice having a recommended local technician fabricate and install these components himself. the only opinion i have is that having it done locally could potentially save money on shipping as well as down time for the guitar. additionally, it would potentially allow the tech to become more familiar with my particular instrument and better tailor to it. plus, i'm not comfortable tinkering around yet. then again, i might get charged extra for local custom work. so i'm interested in learning why everyone seems to favor going with Mr. Colosi or the like or than the fact that he seems to deliver as advertised for a nominal fee.
with regard to the tuning issue i'm experiencing, would something like this be a solid solution or is there a better way? or perhaps this is just a nuance of the instrument? this is what i currently use.
@ChiyoDad - i think haole ʻeleʻele might be more correct ;)
oh, and do small local shops typically carry these string action gauges? i stopped by the nearest shop today and they responded "sorry, we don't carry tools". i live on oahu, btw.
and on a mostly unrelated note, the most commonly recommended method books/dvds seem to be those by Juan Martin and Gerhard Graf-Martinez. the problem is, i've read conflicting opinions. there's people on each side saying that the other assumes prior knowledge of theory/technique and is unsuitable for beginners. i'd like to acquire a book/dvd to study alongside my weekly lessons, but don't want to get something too far beyond my level. i can read some standard music notation and understand some very basic concepts in theory, but am not well-versed by any stretch of the imagination. opinions?
and of course, a million thanks to you all for helping to make my experience with flamenco thus far not only pleasant and exciting, but informed as well.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Oct. 30 2008 21:08:08
|
|
superboo
Posts: 25
Joined: Oct. 22 2008
From: San Francisco, CA
|
|
RE: Yamaha CG171SF Modification Reco... (in reply to superboo)
|
|
|
2 week update...
i have developed much confidence in this instrument now and believe it will be a loyal friend for years to come.
the tech i mentioned in earlier posts performed a setup on my telecaster--i'm extremely pleased with his professionalism as well as his work. the yamaha will be going in next week for setup and nut/saddle replacement.
i changed the strings a few days ago to d'addario ej45. even my ears noticed an immediate improvement that was definitely not placebo. this was the first time i've ever changed strings on any guitar. i didn't quite understand how to attach the strings at the head stock end, and i suspect that they might be slipping a bit since not all of the string ends are tucked under the wraparounds (this is my uninformed speculation). i find that the guitar doesn't completely hold its tuning overnight or while i'm at work. this could be a result of a flawed string change on my part, poor tuners, the acclimitization of the wood, or simply the new strings settling in....or a combination of all these reasons.
as for my tuning issues, i've found substantial satisfaction with a simple tuning fork as opposed to purchasing a new electronic tuner. in just a couple of days using this method, i'm already finding myself tuning more quickly with less and less help from tuners. my ear-based accuracy is slowly developing.
not much else to say as i've begun to focus less on the instrument and more on my own playing. for anyone concerned, i ordered the graf-martinez books and dvd. they haven't arrived yet, but my teacher's instruction combined with a copy of the christopher parkening method (classical) is proving to be plenty for me to work through.
the horrible, spider-butterfly tuners will be replaced in the future.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 11 2008 1:15:51
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.109375 secs.
|
Printable Version
