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Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

Solo compositional techniques? 
One of my biggest regrets guitar wise, was not enrolling on the Riquini course when I was in Cordoba. The course was billed as a solo compositional course, in which he divulged everything about his technique of composing, having learnt a few pieces of his, how he thought of doing some of his falsetas is still a mystery, they don’t seem to have evolved from any guitarist previously that I can think of, in the same way Tomotio has evolved from PDL’s falsetas for eg, and Paco evolved them from Nino Ricardo etc. I remember Juan Martin saying he uses two techniques, one is thinking of a melody, then finding it on the guitar, and two, just fiddling about on the guitar, and coming by a falseta idea by accident, I think also trying to fit a melody to the compass using a flamenco metronome, missing out notes so as to fit the rhythm, is a tool that the pros probably use, just wondered if anyone out there has inside knowledge of how they do it.
Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2004 11:22:25
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
Seems to me tangos falsetas are more straightforward for composition than say, the solea?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2004 11:29:31
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Billyboy
I remember Juan Martin saying he uses two techniques, one is thinking of a melody, then finding it on the guitar,


That's the way I've always written music, hearing the melody in my head and then working it out on the guitar. Having said that, I have tweaked a few standard falsetas to suit my way of playing.

I think I spend far too much time searching for the 'perfect falseta' and not enough time writing my own. Whenever I wade thru all the flamenco Tabledit files of a particular palo on my hard drive, I always end up liking about 5% of them..

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2004 12:06:39
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
Jon I have found writing my own stuff as imposable so far, I make the excuse of living in a northern mill town, as not evoking flamenco ambience. actually that is a valid point. Are any of your compositions on your web site?
Cheers
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2004 12:31:19
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
I have just gotten into composing recently, but I am definitely of the "messing around" school. But that messing around is usually based upon something. What I do, is I hear something I like or I remember something I like,then I go to the guitar and try to find it. It's almost always twisted and transmogrified by the process into something completely different by the time I've done with it. One caveat, as I've gotten better on the guitar, I start to hear and remember things fairly accurately and it changes things from composition to transcription!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2004 17:17:22
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
Hi Mike,
At the weekend I watched the Saura "Flamenco" DVD.
There were a couple of simple, traditional falsetas I heard that really gave me the chills, so I thought I'd definitely have to try to get them down.
I was a bit taken to find that the falsetas I liked were ones I had been playing for years.
So what's making the difference?
These guys are anything but guitar virtuosos.
I play the same notes with the same compas on a good guitar?
I know I've made this point before, but it intrigues me!

Hmmm...

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2004 21:01:10
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Ron.M) 
Have you tried recording your version? maybe you do sound the same. But I have found the same problem, but I think I have worked out the answer. The reason one doese'nt sound the same is because one plays too much to the compas, with that Riqueni piece I learnt when analised, he plays notes just after the beat, say a note or chord should land on 3, flamencos will play it on 3 1/2. But then will come in bang on the 10th. Try it with a Solea. That is what I have found when slowing stuf down with ASD. It creates a feeling of improvisation.
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2004 21:29:34
 
Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
Well, by no means, am I a good guitar player...yet I'm still trying!!

I always record what I play, and most times when I miss a falseta that I was SUPPOSED to play right, then it's wrong! Yet if it's still in compas, then that is YOUR falseta! NO ONE else could play it! (unless they wanted to sound like you)!!!!!

To me, trying to learn flamenco, is not like learning classical...note for note..so I'm not much into whether I did a flaseta right or wrong...flamenco is dynamic!~ ;>)

Also, don't be like me, and just soley concentrate on how you sound while recording!! Because, I GUARANTEE, it will sound terrible (well, mine does)...

And the good thing about always recording, sometimes, once in a blue moon, whenever the lights go down, just play to your own satisfaction, then it's all good, and sometimes it sounds better than you thought?

There is a right and wrong way to play flamenco, just don't let it get in the way of playing from your heart and soul. Mistakes and all...

Merle

P.S. Stay in compas...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2004 23:46:56
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
Yeah Dave, I hear what you're saying. These guitarists tend to have a "loose but precise" sound to their playing and a flamenco tone that I find hard to get.
Maybe this sound is acquired working with singers where the playing must be very flexible to move with the singer, but precise enough to nail that chord change spot on.
I mentioned to the guitarist Rafael (Oxford) that I felt I sounded like somebody doing a parody of a flamenco guitarist, but he said no, it sounded OK.
I don't know though, sometimes I feel like that Japanese Elvis impersonator doing an Elvis song LOL.
I think it's maybe something that would take studying in Andalucia for six months or so to get some perspective on?

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2004 9:04:32
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Billyboy
actually that is a valid point. Are any of your compositions on your web site?



Yes, may not be your cup of tea though! Flamenco it aint.

If you look on my audio page, there are two preview tracks from the CD I am writing: Palomino and Matador. The latter is really my re-working of the famous (read 'cheesy' ) Malaguena theme, the former is a laid back poppy rumba with fairly obvious influences.

I have a more interesting rocked-up tarantas influenced thingy which I need to put up there. I posted it a while back and the guys here seemed to like it.

Cheers

Jon
PS I would have thought your nothern working class environment would be ideal for writing flamenco! Is it not the cry of the oppressed? The Spanish blues? Look at Tarantas - Arthur Scargill would have been proud of some of those
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2004 9:11:44
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Hi Mike,
At the weekend I watched the Saura "Flamenco" DVD.
There were a couple of simple, traditional falsetas I heard that really gave me the chills, so I thought I'd definitely have to try to get them down.
I was a bit taken to find that the falsetas I liked were ones I had been playing for years.
So what's making the difference?


Phrasing.

Jon

Great film, eh?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2004 9:13:54
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
I suppose I could do a Clog dance to a Buleria, with Jaleo encouragement, something like “ey up lad, that’s bloody marvellous!”. I find Blackburn depressing rather than inspiring. Having said that Philip J Lee used to give a Northern folksy feel to his flamenco, which is an achievement. And Ron, I think you are being a bit hard on yourself, that Buleria section you once sent me sounded like the real Mac Koy to me. Certainly a good right hand technique is important, to get the right sound remembering to use rest strokes for all the thumb work etc.
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2004 16:17:54
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
Dave, you know that Ron is crazy, right? He'll spend 3 hours on a little thumb passage trying to get all these sounds that no one else even hears.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2004 15:15:27
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
I'm not one to criticise a scots man, I don't agree, he is a very nice man.
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2004 20:30:59
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
Thanks Dave,
But I've got to admit that Mike's right. I probably am crazy.
I keep thinking about that thing you said about the punchbag.
(But can't everybody else hear these tiny little sounds, or is it just my crazy mind? LOL)

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2004 21:01:13
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
I saw this by Jose Antonio Rodriguez...

"I have some alegrías on the computer that I started in the year 2000. And I've got about thirty minutes now. I listened to it the other day determined to get a tune out of it. Five minutes later I quit because I didn't like it at all."

So it's not easy for the pros either!

The full interview is on Flamenco-World.com

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2004 17:03:20
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
Dave,
What Northern Mill Town would that be?
Just made me think reading your post that I once went to a weekend cante accompanyment thing in Stockport organised by the local guitar shop and taken by Nick Wilkinson, I remember a guy in the corner playing some tricky Tomatito pieces from Encuentro video.
Was that you by any chance?
Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2004 11:00:59
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
LOL, yeh twas I, I'm from Blackburn, I was the one that had a go at the Solea Cante accom, and made a complete balls of it, Intresting day though.
Cheers
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2004 16:16:47
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
Dave,
How's that for hitting bull with a long shot?
I was the guy to your left who also had a go.
We'll need to meet up at the summer foro, probably down in Derby.
Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2004 0:17:51
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
Good deduction, I seem to remember you made quite a good job of it, had you done it before?. I find Solea the most dificult palo to get my head round, it seems an age before that 3rd beat come round, I went to the fest in Yorkshire near Howarth last year, with Mike Holmes, where you there?
Cheers
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2004 11:03:40
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Billyboy) 
Hi Dave,
Sorry for time taken to reply,
quote:

had you done it before?.

I do a lot of playing for dance so my compas is normally quite tight. Playing 'por Cante' is another matter and I went down that time really just out of interest.
I didn't know about the Yorkshire festival you mentioned.
How was Mike?
Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2004 11:04:51
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Billyboy) 
[Deleted by Admins]

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2004 16:21:53
 
Billyboy

 

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003
 

RE: Solo compositional techniques? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

He learned to break the compass into fragments when composing. For example breaking it into a front 6 and a back 6,

Falsetas seem to have a motif, that is repeated after the six'th beat, the intervening beats dont seem to be acented
Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2004 21:03:02
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