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mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

Juan Martin?1 votes
Hi,

I'm relatively new here, and don't want to bore old-timers, and I have read all the old posts I can find relating to this already, which only serve to deepen the mystery for me.... they also refer back to even older posts (apparently) called "Juan Martin wars" which I couldn't find, unless that's what I was already reading...?

The question I have really is not whether JM is a good guitarist or not, or whether he's better or worse than PDL (I have ears of my own...) but whether the persistent rumours about JM are true or false, and if true, is there some kind of conspiracy of silence about outing him? And if false, well then they are pretty nasty and ought to be scotched with some hard factual evidence!

I am, of course, talking about "rumours" that he is not Spanish, that his accent is not genuine, and that he grew up in Brighton, UK, where he was known as "Johnny Martin" and spoke with a South-Eastern English accent.

The point is, I don't begrudge anyone success based on talent and/or hard work (and I don't think anyone would deny that JM puts the work in producing teaching materials, albums and tours), but if someone promoting "traditional pure" flamenco is deliberately misleading the public or wilfully allowing untruths to be broadcast about themselves then I think there is a Trading Standards issue here and that it is totally outrageous!

I have looked at a number of JM's books and video's, none of which say where he was born, where he grew up, or what nationality his parents are/were (and I'm sure if he was Spanish and born and brought up in Spain it would be trumpeted very loudly), yet the Wikipedia on him says he was born in Malaga (repeated in at least one newspaper article/interview).... Can anyone verify if this is true or false?

Sorry to go on about this if you're bored of this already, but I have heard so many things about this over the years, and have had so many discussions with people about it that I really feel like I need to know the truth!

Also, if (and it's a big "if" 'cos I don't know) these rumours are true, and if JM were open and honest about it, it might open the door for other non-Spanish guitarists to be accepted by the public in the UK and USA, and if they are false, then a hell of a lot of people need to stop bitching about this guy!

mark
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2007 21:31:56
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Hi Mark, you like to get straight in there don't you? Straight into the topics that start arguments ! Just kiddin. I guess some of the more long-standing members will be bored with this, but I'm still a relative newbie so I'll talk to you!

I don't know the answers to your questions, but if JM isn't Spanish, he wouldn't be the only flamenco guitarist to put on a fake Spanish accent and apologise for his English grammar.

The question is, why would people do that? Is it back to that old stereotype that you can only play flamenco if it's in your blood and you grew up with it?

This sort of thing must be really common in all professions too - rock musicians and actors probably manipulate their histories to fit in with whatever gives them the "right" background.

Actually the flamenco company I used to dance with used to insist we used fake tan and died our hair dark to look more Spanish. They wanted us all to take Spanish stage names too, but I drew the line at that - cos I'm half Scottish and proud of it!! Can you play flamenco on bagpipes??
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2007 21:46:24
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
Sorry to go on about this if you're bored of this already


Hi Mark. It's allright.
Ah JM tread is never boring.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2007 22:05:32
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Ailsa)1 votes
quote:

used to insist we used fake tan and died our hair dark to look more Spanish. They wanted us all to take Spanish stage names too


OMG !! JM TOO, he has freckles and red hair in real life and has a accent coach who keeps correcting him, " Its not Hello " its HHeelo"

but back to the thread subject, yeah roumers are nasty !!pple shouldnt spread em... i dont know why people do that, some people hHave some splaining to du .

if juan is english or not , i still blame England for him (him and the spice girls), we would have never allowed him to become that famous if he was living in Australia, the second we read "the" famous quote on his webpage ... "- Allright thats enough John, cmon mate you getting ahead of yourself, lets go have a pint"

I think its about time England takes resposibilities for theyr mistakes and clean up theyr own mess

Say what you will about Australia but his own solo concert got cancelled cause they didnt sell enough tickets. (see we do our part for flamenco)

he should have killed me when he had the chance


let the tread begin

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2007 22:22:49
 
andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Florian) 
I was going to tell Mark that Flo is friendly with JM so he would be the best person to ask...

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¡este arbol tiene duende, cabron!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2007 22:40:23
 
andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Ailsa) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa
Can you play flamenco on bagpipes??


There must be some Galician flamenco with bagpipes in it somewhere Ailsa
Just change the scales a little and it might sound quite north african!
But then folk music isn't flamenco, even if it's from, er, Sevilla

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¡este arbol tiene duende, cabron!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2007 22:42:34
 
Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
who's juan martin?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2007 23:05:14
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Stu)1 votes
quote:

and ought to be scotched with some hard factual evidence!


need i say more ?


also he was buying a table cloth for his mom, he wasent happy when he spoted us takinga photo, he crossed the street and came straight for us and he was becoming very agressive trying to take our camera...we were expecting manuel from "faulty towers" instead we got Vinnie Jones

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 0:01:27
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo)1 votes
Juan Martin was born in the city of Tabriz in Iran.
I met him years ago when he was drunk a little bit and he told me everything about his childhood.
Thats why he does many concerts in Iran even though its really dangerous there.
Have you ever seen Paco in Iran? No.

Here is a secret interview with Juan Martin in persian language:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/interactivity/debate/story/2004/08/040823_h_martin.shtml

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 0:16:20
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Arash) 
Arash,
An english version of that interview wouldn't be asking too much would it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 0:23:40
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Arash)1 votes
quote:

اينکه اين کنسر چنين کنسرت های رو ميکنن . اما به اميد روزی که بتوانيم آزادانه اين قبيل برنامه ها را در ايران


lier

Franciso let me see if i can translate it for you ...

quote:

احمد رسولی نژاد از جمله نمايندگان معترض هستند که معتقدند با توجه به "همزمانی اجرای کنسرت با تهاجم آمريکا به نجف" اين کنسرت نبايد برگزار شود.

نايب رئيس مجلس نيز پس از قرائت تذکر نمايندگان گفت: "من هم خواهش می کنم اين کنسرت را لغو کنند."

بر اساس گزارش خبرگزاری های ايران از جمله خبرگزاری ميراث فرهنگی، خوان مارتين قرار است روزهای 5 و 6 شهريور ماه در شيراز و سپس در کاخ نياوران تهران به اجرای کنسرت بپردازد.

نظر شما چيست؟ آيا وقايع جاری عراق می تواند به عنوان دليل لغو رويدادهای فرهنگی در کشورهای همسايه قرار گيرد؟



blah blah blah, I am the greatest in the world, most traditional, I am voted one of the 3 best guitarists in the world

Mark is this thread everything you hoped it would be ? if you read the old threads as you mention then you saw this coming.... just as i know whats coming next

you also know that none of the threads ever got solved or came to a good conclusion...they just stoped cause people got sick of arguing or someone insulted someone or someone threatened to leave or admin had to close the thread ..
if you like him good, thats all that should matter to you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 0:25:24
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Francisco)1 votes
quote:

ORIGINAL: Francisco

Arash,
An english version of that interview wouldn't be asking too much would it?


It would. Because it doesnt exist.
It was the only interview with Juan in his native language (persian) btw....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 0:26:26
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Hey Flo.
Thanks for sharing the interview.
Btw. he mentions a guy name tzuclek or something. Does anyone know him? Was it his mentor maybe ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 1:39:55
 
hassurbanipal

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
hold on for a second,
I'm going to get a little popcorn and a coke and sit back to watch the games begin!!!!

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Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens."
E. Satie
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 1:45:56
 
hassurbanipal

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo)2 votes
juan martin
born in romenia
emigrated to australia
and lives there under the name of florian
sometimes he does a double gig under both names to confuse people who he really is.
And sometimes he posts under the name of florian about himself.....

let the beast go, Flo !!!!

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Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens."
E. Satie
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 1:48:51
 
Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

Have you ever seen Paco in Iran? No.


No you are right.
However, at the recent paco gig I worked on we were in pacos dressing room after the show and various people were coming in to congratulate him on the concert, get autographs etc. There was one Iranian guy who came in and he bought paco some gifts and was heaping praise on him. He asked Paco if he would consider coming to play in Iran and paco said he would! The guy from Iran said chonchi and montse would have to be covered up and paco candidly replied ... "Well...We cover them up then!"
So perhaps we will see paco playing in Iran, or maybe he was just humouring the guy. He also made a joke about the bomb which the Iranian guy didnt think was very funny.

Anyways, I can't quash those rumours or confirm them and I dont care if JM is English, Iranian, Romanian, Spanish, Martian, etc
He is just JM. He likes Flamenco, he's better than me, but not best in world or whatever it is.
If he is pretending to be Spanish then thats lame.
If you want to listen to good flamenco, you know yourself, listen to paco. If you want to learn flamenco juans books are a good starting point.

The end
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 3:09:19
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo)1 votes
Florian, please do not falsify translations.

---

Important Announcement:

Juan Martin is to hold his prestigious flamenco money making workshop in Malaga.

From January 18th to February 13th, 2008, maestro Juan Martin will teach his respective professional-level intensive course specializing in styles such as Tarantas por abandonado, Solea por Sloppy, and his famous style Dinero de la nada.

Dinero de la nada is a very popular new style in flamenco as it is possible to make a lots of money by using only 3 chords on your guitar. Juan will teach you how to do it. Unless you want to continue learning all those difficult Falsetas from Chicuelo, Pedro Sierra, Chuscales and all those other unsuccessful unpopular guitarists whom nobody knows.



Francisco...

Manzmann lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 3:17:51
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Stu) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Manzmann


If you want to listen to good flamenco, you know yourself, listen to paco. If you want to learn flamenco juans books are a good starting point.

The end


What are you talking about?
Paco learned all his stuff from Juans books. Didnt you know that?


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 3:25:18
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to hassurbanipal)1 votes
quote:

sometimes he does a double gig under both names to confuse people who he really is.
And sometimes he posts under the name of florian about himself.....


lol u got me sometimes i use this guys photo, cause hes cool
but then i get angry at myself and start cursing myself out ...but then i remember "Hey i am the 3rd best guitarist in the world" ....but then i think, ohh thats just bull i dont really belive that...but then i see that some people did ...

so i do it for my fans

its very hard to be me

...ps writting a autobiography , called
" People dont just wanna be like me, they wanna be me"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 3:31:22
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Arash) 
quote:

Tarantas por abandonado, Solea por Sloppy, and his famous style Dinero de la nada.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 4:00:18
 
Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to andresito) 
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa
Can you play flamenco on bagpipes??



There must be some Galician flamenco with bagpipes in it somewhere Ailsa
Just change the scales a little and it might sound quite north african!

I think that one of the guys in the radio article that Ron posted recently should be commissioned to work out a siguiriyas-pibroch. That could be really good.

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Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 4:04:51
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Arash) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

Tarantas por abandonado, Solea por Sloppy, and his famous style Dinero de la nada.


I would love to see your face when he arrives at your door to have a few words with you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 4:06:51
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to koella) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: koella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

Tarantas por abandonado, Solea por Sloppy, and his famous style Dinero de la nada.


I would love to see your face when he arrives at your door to have a few words with you.






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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 4:36:59
 
Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo)2 votes
There are many many people who think that it's impossible for anyone not born in Spain to play flamenco well, or at all. That is why many foriegn born performers change their names, dye their hair black, and even create fake bios and accents.

I was doing a casual at an upscale hotel and a guy who worked at the bar comes up and asks me in a heavy Spanish accent what kind of music I was going to play. I said flamenco. He asks "And how are you going to do that?" I ignored him. After hearing me play, he was very complementry, and wanted to know how I learned to play. After conversing with the guy, it turned out he was from Argentina................

Imagine being Juan Martin, and having a career traveling all over. While many aficianados may know his background, and may or may not smile with condescension, how many have walked in his shoes?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 5:17:08
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

There are many many people who think that it's impossible for anyone not born in Spain to play flamenco well, or at all.


don't I know it...

quote:

Imagine being Juan Martin, and having a career traveling all over.


I'd be scared of being found out! and if he did just relax and let the "truth" (if it is that) be known, maybe it would mean that some of that prejudice against non-spanish guitarists (as well as dancers) would be broken down a little bit...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 6:02:29
 
wiglebot

Posts: 39
Joined: Nov. 15 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
If I play Funk do I need a dye-job and a jerry-curl?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 7:31:33
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Mark2) 
quote:

While many aficianados may know his background, and may or may not smile with condescension, how many have walked in his shoes?


we all have, everyday, most of us are unspanish a lie is not any less of a lie just because you have an ok excuse (if it is a lie )

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 8:44:48
 
Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Florian) 
quote:

Manzmann lol


Which bit is funny??
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 10:21:35
 
Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to Florian) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

[we all have, everyday, most of us are unspanish a lie is not any less of a lie just because you have an ok excuse (if it is a lie )



Well maybe a bit, but not to the degree Juan has. And where do you draw the line? Is it ok to adpot a spanish nickname? How about translating your real name? John becomes Juan. Dye you hair? OK or a lie? Many foriegners think it's fine to adpot a nickname, but I once read a note from a spanish flamenco who said he'd feel cheated if he went to see "El Oso" and he turned out to be Bob Smith from Cleveland. Would anyone care what he called himself or sounded like if Juan was playing local tablos in the UK? Is it only a sin if you are successful? Many movie stars changed their names-it's SHOW business, entertainment........................maybe we take it too seriously.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 10:33:09
 
val

 

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
From: London

RE: Juan Martin? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Things seem to be heating up here. I've only been away a few hours engaging in my new obsession, when I come back I find this.
One of my older dance teachers (British, now in his 70s with early career in Spain) confirms the rumours are true. But then, I'm not a primary source ...
Val
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2007 10:58:58
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