Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





tricks of the trade?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

tricks of the trade? 

I've noticed that every time I see a new guitar, straight from the maker, the bass strings always seem to be on back to front.

I've just always strung my guitar with the flexible loose wound ends around the bridge and as that just seems so obvious, but when they come on first delivery, the loose wound flexible ends are up at the machine end.

Has anyone noticed this before?

Anyway, I tryed it that way and noticed that the bass strings seem to tune up and stay in pitch quicker than normal.

Just thought I'd let you all know.

Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2004 13:41:56
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hi Jim, I always put the loose ends at the top through the rollers. I figure if you tie them around the tieblock they would stretch loose since they stretch if you pull on them. I've also read you can do it the way you do as well. I guess it's personal preference. Now that I think of it, I've never done it your way. I think I'll try it like that next.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2004 14:17:45
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

Jim, I think YOU'RE backwards! :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2004 15:21:26
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

No he isn't, that's the way I do it too!

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2004 15:37:29
 
Jonathan

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Jan. 14 2004
 

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Escribano

Jim and Simon,
Every guitamaker and professional flamenco guitarist I know in Spain puts the loose ends through the rollers or clavijas.

_____________________________

Jonathan Nagy
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2004 20:53:52
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jonathan

Jim - this is the right way, not backwards.

The main reason it is advisable is this: you risk the windings cutting into the tieblock if you put the loose ends down there. There's a luthier website where he talks about the repairs he's had to make on guitars where people have wound the loose end round the tieblock. You can often see the wear caused by this on older guitars.

I think the site may have been www.frets.com

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2004 21:09:03
Guest

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jon Boyes

I think the frets.com site actually shows the loose ends going around the tieblock.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way. Since people do it both ways, both ways must work.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2004 22:50:26
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hi Jim,
I used to do it your way as well...it seemed logical somehow.
But I too noticed that the new guitars were strung the other way round.
Then one day in Spain a guitarist laughed at me and said "Why do you put your strings on the wrong way round?"
I was at a fragile age and felt embarrased, so I've put the loose ends through the rollers ever since!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2004 8:27:17
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jonathan

quote:

Every guitamaker and professional flamenco guitarist I know in Spain puts the loose ends through the rollers or clavijas.


Good enough for me, I'll change my ways

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2004 8:33:45
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

Hmmm... I just had a look at some old LP covers.
On one Paco Peña cover (Flamenco Paco Peña) it looks like he's using Savarez red card strings (which I know he was using in those days) and he's got the floppy end going through the rollers.
Interesting...in the pictures of Sabicas, PdL etc, there seem to be no floppy ends either at the tieblock or rollers.
I noticed in one PdL picture he seems to be using those "Gato Negro" black trebles.

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2004 9:21:38
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Ron.M

Ron,

How in the world can you tell what strings a guitarist is using by looking at a photo??? They all look the same to me. How do you know Paco's are Gato Negro and not La Bella black trebles or even some type of gut strings?

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2004 12:09:46
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to TANúñez

Tom.
Just talent I guess....sometimes I don't even need the photo.

Seriously though, "Gato Negro" are the only black trebles I've ever seen.
Just a case of ignorance I'm afraid.

Anyway, I bet they were Gato Negros (or should that be Gatos Negros?).
How ya gonna prove me wrong? LOL!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2004 12:55:23
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

How ya gonna prove me wrong? LOL!


I can't that's why I need to know your secret.

La Bella's flamenco strings feature black trebles. I don't know if they were around way back in the day though. They also make these blood red trebles. I don't really like these and they also stain the rollers. What's with color anyway? Does it serve a purpose or is it only for looks?

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2004 13:52:59
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to TANúñez

Dunno Tom, I thought they were made out of black cats?

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2004 14:42:46
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to TANúñez

Zurdo,

I know you are a guitar dealer and have to keep in touch with all the issues.
On the coloured string issue, well, frankly I was lying!
I actually do know, but was reluctant to tell, lest no one would believe me.
I may as well disclose this episode which happened to me back in 1970...

One day as I was coming out of the old Ramirez shop in Madrid , I practically tripped up over somebody sitting on the pavement outside, who asked me if I could spare "a few pesetas for an old man."
Whilst digging in my pocket for some loose change, he asked me what I had bought.
I told him, just some Savarez strings for my guitar....
He reached out for them, took one look at them and threw them to the ground.
"Paa!...French muck! ... Where are you from amigo?... Let me tell you the true story of true Spanish stringmaking."
I picked up my packet of strings and quickly pocketed them, as he beckoned me to sit beside him.
"Look amigo", he said "I spent forty five years of my life making strings in the old "Black String" factory up in the North of this city, until I became too old to work anymore.
Nobody could make strings like us amigo... Nobody.
Even The Maestro himself used them as you can see on his Album cover.
Back in those days, all the orphans from the various barrios would come, barefoot and dressed in rags bringing us dead cats, mostly the result of road accidents etc, for which the Manager would pay between one and three pesetas each one, depending on the quality and blackness of the cat.
One day a boy, just a child of maybe nine or ten, appeared with one of the fattest and blackest cats I had ever seen...La Madre Mia!...it was a sight indeed to behold!
The Manager quicky sent someone up to fetch the Señorito, the owner of the Factory.
He came down and inspected it, smiled and nodded in approval, and pressed a shiny duro piece into the urchin's grubby hand.
Hombre!.... Five pesetas for a cat?...It was unheard of in those days I tell you!
I have never come across such a cat since.
When we had collected enough cats, then the Head Stringmaker would light the fire under the brine filled Cauldron and once it was up to temperature, the Apprentices would lower the dead cats in, a similar kind of process really as boiling horses down for glue.
The broth was then lovingly hand stirred by Apprentices who would sleep and work in shifts for three nights and three days, slowly reducing to a thick, black gloop.
At that point, the Head Stringmaker would return, constantly checking the consistency and quality every two minutes, even forgoing meal times until it was just perfect.
At that point he would shout "Eso Es!"
We'd immediately all stop playing cards or fooling around and we'd all stand in silence.
An Appentice would run to fetch the Señorito, who would return with a phial of his 'secret ingedient', which was the elixor of turning the gloop into strings.
The potion was poured in and quickly stirred by the Head Stringmaker, who would then take a long rod, known as "El Varilla" and carefully pull up a filament of the black substance, pulling it slowly across a 100 metre long glass table, at which were seated some thirty or so girls.
These girls were not your usual cigar rollers from the Tobacco Factories, but hand picked, imported workers from the Spaghetti rolling industry in Italia.
They could roll that cooling filament to within a thousanth of a millimetre with just the touch of their hands...we didn't even have a micrometer in the Factory!
It was a joy to watch them work.
When the filament had cooled sufficiently and had achieved it's strength and suppleness, it was then cut up into lengths and placed in packets suitable for selling."

I told him I was truly amazed at this "underworld" of string manufacture, and I asked him about the red strings I had seen.
Where were they made?
He laughed and nodded...
"Si Hombre, recuerdo muy bien", he said smiling.
"It was a foreigner, Americano, I think, started a Factory here in Madrid looking for a new innovation in strings.
He wasn't a cat man though, mainly dogs....
After many months experimenting he came up with the Red Setter as the best for strength and durability.
Some people didn't like them much, as the strings would leave red marks on the bridge and the rollers.
Actually they used to sell the red dog distillate to Conde Hermanos, who would mix it with Shellac and Turpentine to finish their guitars with.
They liked the reddish-orange finish and said it gave the guitars more of a bite and growl."

I thanked him for his story and as I was about to go, he asked me for fifty pesetas for another bottle of "Fundador" as all this story telling was making him thirsty.
So that's the true story of coloured strings, brought to you for the first time exclusively on this Forum.

cheers

Ron

PS Do you think Jason Webster would be interested in this for his new book "Duende Revisited"?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2004 21:32:39
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Ron.M

Ron that was great!

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2004 2:15:07
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

Ron, you have too much time on your hands.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2004 6:19:47
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Ron.M



_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2004 8:17:57
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Ron.M

Brilliant Ron and watch out Jason Webster.

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2004 10:31:47
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
PS Do you think Jason Webster would be interested in this for his new book "Duende Revisited"?


You just need to take some drugs, get off with the bloke's wife and you're basically there, Ron.


"..the most inspiring and authentic account of string making I have ever read."
Literary Review

"..Ron.M takes us on an exhilirating journey to the heart of the string maker. Never before has such an absolutely 100% true, it-all-actually-happened, factual account of one man's search for string perfection ever been published, ever."
Publishers' Weekly

"..I could almost smell the dog slop. I just wish he would get off with that bloke's wife."
The Sun

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2004 10:58:36
Guest

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

I always put the loose wound end at the nut, otherwise it will unwind a bit leaving the nylon exposed which can snap due to friction on the bridge, never understood why they do that with strings anyway.
Billyboy
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2004 9:34:14
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Guest

Ok! I hear what you all say about me being upside down and not the strings.
But it's obvious that it costs money to make a 'special' end on a string, I mean some cheap strings are just cut lengths with no loose end, so why do they do it?
Only reason can be to make it easier to bend the string and tie round the bridge, right!

Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2004 13:01:45
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

Jim,
That's what I thought too...
Why don't you drop a line to your "good friends" at Savarez and ask them?
At least we'll have a final answer!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2004 13:57:48
 
Per Hallgren

 

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

Why don't you drop a line to your "good friends" at Savarez and ask them?
At least we'll have a final answer!


They would answer the the loose end is a result of the winding machine marking the individual string length on the long uncut string at the machine. The loose end is thus not intended to simplify tieing at the bridge.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2007 21:12:19
 
Donald

 

Posts: 101
Joined: Jun. 28 2004
 

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

Ron, Since tanguillos are often a tall story maybe you could re write the tale in cante form.
Donald
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2007 22:14:20
 
Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: tricks of the trade? (in reply to Jim Opfer

Glad we've got these useful tips!! A related question...how much slack to leave on the strings, AKA, how much string to leave hanging from the hole in the rollers (to be cut off later)? I leave only a little slack, and cut off a lot of string at the head, but maybe I shouldn't do that and maybe I should use the whole string?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2007 12:57:29
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.09375 secs.