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Guitar construction
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante)
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In many ways, employing a lightweight truss rod just seems sensible. I’ve only built using a truss rod once, however, on a steel string acoustic I made. It also had a bolt on neck. I’ve built using both dovetailed and Spanish foot styles for the neck, and each method has its pros and cons. I’ve long since settled into building using the Spanish method, but if I ever were to go back to a separate neck/body attachment it would be to either build raised fretboard classicals (a la Humphrey) or adjustable action models, which would be a form of bolt on (I’m not sure what they’re called these days...tilt necks?). I realize the raised fretboard style can be constructed in the Spanish method, but it just seems to me that it would be easier to do it separately. I haven’t done it either way, but I was taught how to do it with a dovetail, so maybe that’s why I favour it. But, even for building in the Spanish style, lightweight truss rods shouldn’t be dismissed as they could be quite useful, in my opinion.
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Date Feb. 24 2021 17:53:52
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante)
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“ a neck well reinforced shouldn’t move at all and as a consequence shouldn’t need adjustments.” and “ a guitar well cared for....one that is played often usually won’t bend.” And there you have it. But, before I go... Bolt on necks work, they just do, and they are easier to repair, although only poorly made or neglected guitars should ever need attention, so who cares. It’s easier to put binding on a body without a neck in the way, but not that much easier to really matter. It’s easier to get a really clean finish when the neck and body are polished separately (but not that much, if you’re any good). Anyone with ears can hear the difference between French Polish and Nitro, those without ears can hear the difference between Poly and anything else, except old Ramirez sound pretty good and have a finish that wears like nobody’s business. Separate neck and body guitars don’t weigh more, are just as strong, and sound every bit as good. Spanish heel construction is stronger and sounds better. No it doesn’t. Backs done on dishes look terrible, but people who don’t like them don’t have to, it’s a free world...nobody else knows what we’re talking about anyways. Dovetail joints are great, super strong, self locking, even if the neck is fitted with 37 or more shims. Ummm, no, everybody knows that can’t possibly be true, well most everybody. Every Barbero or Santos kicks ass, it’s like driving a Ferrari or maybe a Super-charged Bentley is more apt, not a Tesla, though, because somebody might actually have driven one of those... There are no old master guitars that are not sublime, even the most basic are sublime in their elegant simplicity. Look at that scarf, OMG, it’s freaking invisible. You mean that one, the one I can see from way over here because you’re hogging the frikken flashlight and mirror? That guy over there doesn’t know sh*t...Who?...that guy, WTF is with the holes in the sides? He making some kind of bong or something? Must’ve heard me wrong when I was talking about superchargers...oh, STOP, you slay me, OMG. Put that away...is that a Telecaster?
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Date Feb. 26 2021 2:32:44
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ernandez R
Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: Guitar construction (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF “ a neck well reinforced shouldn’t move at all and as a consequence shouldn’t need adjustments.” and “ a guitar well cared for....one that is played often usually won’t bend.” And there you have it. But, before I go... Bolt on necks work, they just do, and they are easier to repair, although only poorly made or neglected guitars should ever need attention, so who cares. It’s easier to put binding on a body without a neck in the way, but not that much easier to really matter. It’s easier to get a really clean finish when the neck and body are polished separately (but not that much, if you’re any good). Everyone with ears can hear the difference between French Polish and Nitro, those without ears can hear the difference between Poly and anything else, except Ramirez sound pretty good and have a finish that wears like nobody’s business. Separate neck and body guitars don’t weigh more, are just as strong, and sound every bit as good. Spanish heel construction is stronger and sounds better. No it doesn’t. Backs done on dishes look terrible, but people who don’t like them don’t have to, it’s a free world...nobody else knows what we’re talking about anyways. Dovetail joints are great, super strong, self locking, even if the neck is fitted with 37 or more shims. Ummm, no, everybody knows that can’t possibly be true, well most everybody. Every Barbero or Santos kicks ass, it’s like driving a Ferrari or maybe a Super-charged Bentley is more apt, not a Tesla, though, because somebody might actually have driven one of those... There are no old master guitars that are not sublime, even the most basic are sublime in their elegant simplicity. Look at that scarf, OMG, it’s freaking invisible. You mean that one, the one I can see from way over here because you’re hogging the frikken flashlight and mirror? That guy over there doesn’t know sh*t...Who?...that guy, WTF is with the holes in the sides? He making some kind of bong or something? Must’ve heard me wrong when I was talking about superchargers...oh, STOP, you slay me, OMG. Put that away...is that a Telecaster? ...are you blind? it's a Strat, and no that neck is not spalted Birch it's Stilton. But I didn't come here to re-hash the neck to body wars, that argument went up in smoke years ago... So, resawing this log of Birch for a pair of classical necks I'm building and one end, about twelve inches of it is spalted, it is beautiful and I'm going to use it but feeling it might be compromised I'm going to resaw it into strips so the neck will have four full depth strips of CF cloth, two layers of 6oz ( I think it's 6oz?). I want to use the spalted part at the headstock end but it would look extra cool on the heel too. Time will tell. I'm building two Flamenco at the same time both of which have a Cotten wood neck, same as sides and back, with a 1/4 Birch spine and full depth carbon each side of the spine. Trying to use local sustainable woods, not sure where the carbon fiber fits in all my idealism though by rationalizing how it's here in my shop and I may as well use it if it prolongs the life of my guitars. I really feel a lot of the neck lifting, rather then it turning into a banana, comes from the back in tension. I've seen it in my light weight 900g builds. I've removed the longatudanal arch of my backs compleatly to prevent it. The back is now more of a cylinder, if that makes more sense? BTW: photos are not easy on the foro, only slightly better then the Delcamp but it's been getting better, haveing to take them with an iDevice, plug into a computer, open program, inport, edit, resize, etc to post on any forum is kinda... Janky at best. I'll do all my posting on my phone for ease on a handful of forums I torment. I have a newer iPhone that I don't use as a phone more like a mini mini iPad which will promt if I want to resize before trying to post so I use it. I'm going blind so I'll type on this older than dirt iPad, then add photos from said phone. Ha ha haa, who has time for this? Oh wait, Im Half crippled and couch bound for a few hours ever day and my fingers are raw... Most foro software today doesn't care what foto size and pixels and just resizes and dumps the origanal. Also, all my iDevices take screen shots as... Shoot now I don't recall, mostly normal image format (Pict.* ? ) I use that a lot to transfer images cause it's handy. Doesn't work on the foro. Each Image for luthery is like a thousand word essay and I love to write but I'm so flippen dyslexic it takes me a long time to write anything ergo I snap! HR
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor. www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date Feb. 26 2021 3:13:27
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Guitar construction (in reply to ernandez R)
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quote:
...are you blind? it's a Strat, It’s not a Strat...it’s what they call your Nashville Tele...they have an extra Strat pickup between the two tele single coils. Ask Ramzi about it, he better know... quote:
So, resawing this log of Birch for a pair of classical necks I'm building and one end, about twelve inches of it is spalted, it is beautiful and I'm going to use it but feeling it might be compromised I'm going to resaw it into strips so the neck will have four full depth strips of CF cloth, two layers of 6oz ( I think it's 6oz?). I want to use the spalted part at the headstock end but it would look extra cool on the heel too. Time will tell. I’d be a little concerned about working the neck with the cloth all the way through, I think you’ll have to do mainly knife work if you want to avoid dips. Might be pretty hard on the blade. Also, is there a danger of little carbon fibre splinters getting into the player’s hand? Following on that, how safe is that stuff to work? I mean from a perspective of breathing the dust as you sand or the set-up resins as they gas off? quote:
Trying to use local sustainable woods, not sure where the carbon fiber fits in all my idealism though by rationalizing how it's here in my shop and I may as well use it if it prolongs the life of my guitars. I’m really hoping you can get your hands on some of that Alaskan Yellow Cedar. It really makes great guitars and is very well suited to being used for the back and sides of flamencos. And it totally fits your model. quote:
I really feel a lot of the neck lifting, rather then it turning into a banana, comes from the back in tension. I've seen it in my light weight 900g builds. I've removed the longatudanal arch of my backs compleatly to prevent it. The back is now more of a cylinder, if that makes more sense? Cool. I know a couple of makers who’ve experimented with that, I can PM you their names. The one who first came up with the cylinder idea builds pretty wild guitars with laminated backs and sides, tilt necks, raised fingerboards, the whole nine yards of what the kids want to see at the guitar shows. I really like his work. I think he’s moved on to something more involved, however, last time I talked to him he called it a spline, but I had no idea what he was talking about. Definitely still has a bit of a cylindrical appearance, though. quote:
Each Image for luthery is like a thousand word essay and I love to write but I'm so flippen dyslexic it takes me a long time to write anything ergo I snap! I agree. I try to include lots of pictures in my rare write-ups. Sometimes, especially with jigs and the like, I think using photo essays with as few words as possible is the way to go. That way, anyone really interested has to look and think, and then they will own and understand. You can write volumes of spoon-feeding and not be any more effective than a few well thought out photos, IMO.
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Date Feb. 26 2021 3:34:34
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ernandez R
Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante)
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Rough day, over did it behind the snow blower, 2 hours 2.2 miles , and now I’m couch bound instead of being in the shop. I am grumpy as get all... No splinters from the carbon once it’s done as it fairly monolithic once in the adhesive matrix. Finishing takes some care cause it’s like fiberglass only worse. I’ve used it for decades and one takes apropreat precautions, I’m more worried about the forthcoming cedar. Scraping or knifing isn’t too bad, I clear the flash initially with a plane, I position a garbage can underneath and the put the shop vac hose underneath so it draws all the finer dust. In the “Wood Room” where I keep the table, chop and bandsaw, drum sander I made, and do all the other dusty stuff I have a downdraft cabinet I built sized for guitar tops etc. I just plug the shop vac, it’s a big one that lives outside in a cabinet, into it And it draws all the dust away. I always wear a breathable rain coat with a hood to protect myself, a cartridge respirator glasses and when it’s messy I add a face shield. Let’s see if I can get some fotos up Darker wood is hickory for headstocks, I like the sonic properties. The lighter wood is Cotten wood, it’s a kind of poplar and I have a lady stash of boards they were put up years ago. There is a short video time Lapse of me assembling on that insta link up thread; more like a ten thousand word essay. Snuck in the two rosettes I did the other day just cause. As you can see I just use wedges as clamps, wire rods under the wax paper so the carbon lays flat and doesn’t fold. The fabric feels soft but it’s really stiff and will push up from the bottom and do odd stuff all slippery with the adhesive. Not a joke: I had a one inch strip left over so I wrapped it down a pipe to cut up and use for fingernails later... high speed low drag! HR
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_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor. www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date Feb. 26 2021 5:01:35
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Guitar construction (in reply to ernandez R)
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So, the adhesive for the laminate and the resin for the carbon fibre cloth is all the same stuff and you set it all up at the same time? That’s what makes the most sense, to me, if it can be done. I have a feeling this is going to work out quite nicely for you and, if it does, would also be a great subject for a write-up in the Lutherie section, if you were so inclined to do one. I like the idea of just running the cloth right through and incorporating into part of a decorative strip. I don’t know if this is the right use of the word, but Bauhaus springs to mind. Stephen could probably set us straight on that. Like the rosettes a lot, too. Still want you to get some of the Yellow Cedar. Once you have it in hand, you’ll know why - beyond smelling great, it’s an amazing wood. If you can get a chunk of a log of the fine grained stuff I suspect it would be a good investment, too. It’s a far better wood than people realize and so is undervalued, but it won’t be forever. In the past, at least as far as guitars are concerned, it’s been seen as a cheaper alternative to Cypress, or relegated to use as an inner laminate, but the fine grained stuff has a purity about it that makes it a wonderful medium to showcase one’s craftsmanship, as any error or fine detail is amplified. I love the stuff. That’s why I’ve been pushing it on you. P.S. I use wedges, too. Whenever I get an off cut that’s wedge shaped I look at it and figure it might come in handy at some point and save it. Probably have way more than I need.
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Date Feb. 26 2021 9:24:33
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