Master luthier flamenco guitars

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Chanpanpap

Posts: 46
Joined: Jan. 31 2023
From: Miami

Master luthier flamenco guitars

Hi everyone,

Im trying to know the best flamenco guitars such as
Santos Hernandez, Arcangel Fernandez, Gerundino Fernandez, Manuel Reyes, Francisco Barba,

if you know any please let me know bellow

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2023 6:50:24

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Chanpanpap)

Hi there, I don’t get if you are asking a place where to try and buy them or something like video or infos about them.
A collector or a big guitar dealer are among the few options to try the guitars in the same environement
The guitars you mentioned are quite rare to find.
I for one have tried or owned some throughout the years but never got the occasion to compare them one to one.
Also, my experience is limited to those specific Gerundino/Reyes/Barba/Arcangel Guitars I tried but my jusdgement is limited: I am aware that other guitars of the same makers could be much better or worst than those I tried: in the end you can speak just about the guitars you know well.
What I can say is that the guitars you mentioned are all excellent and yet you are paying them at a dry high target price. Too high I. my opinion as there are makers arguably in the same league, at least in their best times.
Some actual luthiers are well able to make you a guitar in the spirit of the historical maker you mention. .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2023 16:40:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Chanpanpap)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chanpanpap

Hi everyone,

Im trying to know the best flamenco guitars such as
Santos Hernandez, Arcangel Fernandez, Gerundino Fernandez, Manuel Reyes, Francisco Barba,

if you know any please let me know bellow

It is good to know lineages. It starts with Manuel and Jose Ramirez (IMO). Jose had a “tablao” guitar that was used by flamenco musicians, but according to his Grandson Jose III, Manuel took over the flamenco market with new ideas that today we consider the standard designs. Blancas, negra, or maple etc style flamenco guitars begin with Manuel Ramirez (1910s). His students branch off the various lineages, and we can say Jose III joins up with them in the 50s or 60s let’s say. Santos, Esteso are the main two lines.

Santos->Barbero->Arcangel->Reyes, Reyes jr., many copy the Reyes style.

Domingo Esteso->Conde Hermanos->Felipe and Mariano ->Felipe jr, etc….many Valencia factory guitars copy their designs.

Jose Ramirez III (a bit of both of the above style mixed together plus innovation of Cedar tops)->IV-> Many factory copies from Spain and Asia, etc.

Ramirez apprentices are numerous:Valbuena, Contreras, Manzanero, Martinez, etc.

We can say all those summarize “madrid school”. Then there is Andalucia where we see some unique makers such as Antonio Marin Montero, Jeronimo Peña Fernandez (my personal favorite), Rodriguez, those that you mentioned (I feel Reyes takes much from Madrid school unlike the others), all of which have created their own lineages where we see modern luthiers furthering their concepts.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2023 17:59:25

Morante

Posts: 2181
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

It starts with Manuel and Jose Ramirez (IMO).

The school of Almería is very important, beginning with Antonio de Torres Jurado, then Moya Hermanos, Gerundino Fernandez Garcia, Juan Miguel Gonzalez Morales, etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2023 18:32:41

Chanpanpap

Posts: 46
Joined: Jan. 31 2023
From: Miami

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Echi)

quote:

don’t get if you are asking a place where to try and buy them or something like video or infos about them.

Im not asking for a place to get it, im asking to know which are the holly grails of the guitars such as mentioned before,

ive heard a few bellidos are as well as the other guitars ive mentioned but id like to know which

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2023 19:23:50

Chanpanpap

Posts: 46
Joined: Jan. 31 2023
From: Miami

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

Amazing answer as usual Ricardo...

Do you know any of the other holly grails of the flamenco guitars?

In modern era of course,

Ive seen Antonio Marin, theres a few Marins in the market!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2023 22:25:49

Chanpanpap

Posts: 46
Joined: Jan. 31 2023
From: Miami

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Morante)

Thanks Morante,

I didnt know the Moya Hermanos

Ill have a look at it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2023 22:27:31

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Chanpanpap)

I wouldn’t agree completely about Almeria.
Basically Torres was a secretive man without any real disciple.
Gerundino is definitely self taught even though his first label mentioned a link with Torres to boast up a little.
In Almeria few makers hired by Eladio kept the tradition of Gerundino but nobody got famous and the guitars were not as good as a a Gerundina.
Reyes is self taught as well as it is Barba: the connection between Reyes and Barbero is just a chat of a coulple of hours in Barbero’s shop. Barbero took a look at a guitar just made by the young Manuel, gave him few andvices and commissioned a guitar to be sold as student model. He died before the guitar was ready then.
It’s evident Reyes was influenced by Santos but as much as it was De la Chica or many other makers, probably examining guitars of Santos.
Barbero is legitimately considered a true disciple of Santos because he worked for the widow even though in fact the 2 luthiers never collaborated in life.
With regards of Manuel Ramirez, he is in fact more close to Torres than he was to his brother José: narrative says the 2 Ramirez brothers learned from Francisco Gonzales but the 2 brothers had such a fight they didn’t speak with each other and took divergent ways of make guitars: Manuel became famous by offering quite faithfully the Torres guitar. In the Urlich book you can even find a fake Torres made by Manuel Ramirez..
The more solid imprints in the Madrid school is Conde with Esteso and Manuel Ramirez - Santos - Barbero - Arcangel - Caceres/Plattner.
You may still find something in common between the old guitars and the new ones within a certain lineage: for instance my 2 Conde (63 and 81) carry the same bracings of guitars made by Esteso.
Then you have all the makers who learned the job in the Ramirez shop and they are many but with the same Ramirez kind of sound.
Granada is a different matter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2023 0:42:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Chanpanpap)

quote:

Do you know any of the other holly grails of the flamenco guitars?

Many say Arcangel because of the fact he only built for the Japanese market for many years (still does?). So it has that added rareness/difficulty-to-acquire added to the value. But for accompanying flamenco singers etc, if you watch the Rito y Geografia series it is mostly conde Hermanos utilized in combo with the voice. It sets a precedent for the aesthetic such that not so much a “holy grail” but a “standard workhorse” model guitar of 60s-70’s era. Not unlike a fender strat for Rock music. And similar to blaming Clapton/Hendrix/Blackmore/Gilmore for this trend, we can point our finger at N. Ricardo/Melchor/M. Morao etc.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2023 13:17:55

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Chanpanpap)

If by holy grail you mean a collector item, then you’d probably add to your list Marcelo Barbero, Miguel Rodriguez, Arcangel, Esteso and some Faustino Conde guitars.
In terms of most sought after flamenco guitars by players I’d say Reyes, old Condes, Barbas, old Gerundino and old Ramirez.
I frankly think that if the main pro player would play a certain guitar, a lot would follow in the conservative wold of flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2023 17:13:48

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Echi)

I have owned a '67 cedar/cypress Ramirez, with the initials of Antonio Martinez, since it was new, and an '82 spruce/cypress Arcangel Fernandez since 2000.

The Arcangel was built for a non-Japanese collector. In 2000 it showed no sign of ever having been handled, much less played.

The Raimirez would now cost around $6,000 from a dealer. I paid far more than that for the Arcangel 23 years ago.

Some knowledgeable players, comparing the two, have preferred the Ramirez, some have preferred the Arcangel. I like the Arcangel better.

For a long time the only guitar I had played that I liked more than the Ramirez was a '73 Conde blanca that belonged to a friend. Then I played the Arcangel.

The best guitar for me may not be the best one for you.

Furthermore, your preference might change as your technique develops.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2023 21:26:13

Chanpanpap

Posts: 46
Joined: Jan. 31 2023
From: Miami

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Right, totally agree,

I just wanted to know which are the Champion Guitars

a few months ago I tried an Marcelo Barbero para la Casa Arcangel Fernandez as well as an Santos Hernandez, both stunning but very taken care of, the Santos had such round bases almost like a classical, the other Para La Casa Arcangel Fernandez was quite ok, not the best but very good both negras btw.

Im looking forward on trying others, I feel lucky I did try a Santos

Ive been considering on a Francisco Barba due to the fact that he is one or the last champion flamenco luthiers alive,

Have you ever tried a Barba? Ive heard theyr really hard to tame, id like to know more about them but its quite something to get info on them

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2023 7:04:30

Chanpanpap

Posts: 46
Joined: Jan. 31 2023
From: Miami

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Echi)

Either way "Holy grail", "Collectors" or "Most sought after" call it what you want, you get the point.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2023 7:08:05

Chanpanpap

Posts: 46
Joined: Jan. 31 2023
From: Miami

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

“standard workhorse” model guitar of 60s-70’s

Totally agree on this Ricardo.

Id say barbas will become more expensive due to Francisco being really old, they'll become a collector's soon.

I think hes the only old gran master alive as well as Antonio Marin,

have you ever tried an Antonio Marin?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2023 7:11:55

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Chanpanpap)

quote:

have you ever tried an Antonio Marin?

Yes. I would say it was not a top model, however it functioned very nicely, flamenco Blanca from 1970s. It only had 18 frets and I noticed one that Diego del Gastor uses in Rito y Geografia also only had 18 frets (a situation sort of random, not deliberate, resulting from sound hole placement). The finish was so thin, it was almost as if it was not finished at all. Wood golpeador covered damage no doubt.

As far as “gran master alive”, I would not be so quick to write off certain living luthiers that follow traditions. For examples it was shocking to notice Felipe Conde jr. Guitar pitted against a large group of master guitars in Gerardo’s class in 2014, his instrument beat all the rest. At the time relatively cheap, and since have gone up. Vintage used guitars will always have some collector value no matter the make or model.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2023 16:55:35

Chanpanpap

Posts: 46
Joined: Jan. 31 2023
From: Miami

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

Right, Ive heard amazing things about Felipe Conde Jr. by many pros,

What do you think about Lester Devoe?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2023 3:52:47

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chanpanpap

Hi everyone,

Im trying to know the best flamenco guitars such as
Santos Hernandez, Arcangel Fernandez, Gerundino Fernandez, Manuel Reyes, Francisco Barba,

if you know any please let me know bellow

It is good to know lineages. It starts with Manuel and Jose Ramirez (IMO). Jose had a “tablao” guitar that was used by flamenco musicians, but according to his Grandson Jose III, Manuel took over the flamenco market with new ideas that today we consider the standard designs. Blancas, negra, or maple etc style flamenco guitars begin with Manuel Ramirez (1910s). His students branch off the various lineages, and we can say Jose III joins up with them in the 50s or 60s let’s say. Santos, Esteso are the main two lines.

Santos->Barbero->Arcangel->Reyes, Reyes jr., many copy the Reyes style.

Domingo Esteso->Conde Hermanos->Felipe and Mariano ->Felipe jr, etc….many Valencia factory guitars copy their designs.

Jose Ramirez III (a bit of both of the above style mixed together plus innovation of Cedar tops)->IV-> Many factory copies from Spain and Asia, etc.

Ramirez apprentices are numerous:Valbuena, Contreras, Manzanero, Martinez, etc.

We can say all those summarize “madrid school”. Then there is Andalucia where we see some unique makers such as Antonio Marin Montero, Jeronimo Peña Fernandez (my personal favorite), Rodriguez, those that you mentioned (I feel Reyes takes much from Madrid school unlike the others), all of which have created their own lineages where we see modern luthiers furthering their concepts.

I don’t think the Archangel to Reyes transmission really works. It seems more like Reyes connected with Barbero not long before he died in regard to a correspondence discussion of Santos, then Reyes is on his own. If the 1960’s Reyes guitars I’ve studied, they look more linked to Santos directly in how he wanted to work and Archangel wasn’t a mentor, they lived in different cities respectively and in many ways were competing from the start of Reyes’ career.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2023 12:46:03

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to Chanpanpap)

For me the Bellido’s are an under appreciated family. The Mexican guitars are also underrated, the Americans are underrated. A few living masters in North America and a few dead ones. Lucian Barnes, Warren White, Gene Clark, and some of the best guitars made are by Lester DeVoe.

The problem is flamenco guitars don’t pay the bills anymore. So luthiers make classical guitars.

But thanks for not larding up the luthiers section with a lineage discussion. Cheers.

My favorite guitars makers are Manuel Bellido, Santos, Gerundino and Pre 1980’s Reyes. I like a good Conde’ too, but there’s a ton more good makers.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2023 12:59:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Master luthier flamenco guitars (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

don’t think the Archangel to Reyes transmission really works.

Right, I couldn’t really do a split and overlap typing. I also forgot Barbero Jr who worked for Arcangel. Split and overlapping occurs throughout the time line, but I was just showing a general timeline, who came next etc. Here is a pic I found with Paco playing either a Barbero or Arcangel or Barbero jr.: