Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and Taranta

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Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and Taranta

I knew this video existed since I saw the brief clip in “light and shade” documentary. Waited patiently since then for the full footage to pop up on youtube. Finally! I suspect this is the guitar he recorded Fantasia with as well:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2019 17:33:29

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

Nice find! Tremolo was great.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2019 3:10:13

Moloko

Posts: 63
Joined: Sep. 19 2015

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

The guitar's neck isn't so high as it usually is in flamenco position, don't know how the **** his guitar doesn't slips, so smooth. He was 21, amazing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2019 23:28:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to jg7238)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jg7238

Nice find! Tremolo was great.

He did this tremolo also in Rito y geografia. However the full length Taranta was really cool to see, plus he adapted the cross leg position first time ever it seems on camera anyway.

For me the main thing is the sound of this guitar is the one I always loved most on that record, and it’s been frustrating that I could never identify it from any live performances until this one. There was that vid of el tempul he did with the tico tico guitar with white plates, it was close but not quite exact. I’m pretty sure now it was this guitar. Interesting to note that he kept it in his collection as you see it used here for a playback vid in the late 80’s

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2019 5:04:57

Fitz63

Posts: 104
Joined: May 16 2016

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

Out of curiosity, did he change the tuning or is the video at a different speed than the original?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2019 8:04:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Fitz63)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitz63

Out of curiosity, did he change the tuning or is the video at a different speed than the original?

If you mean compared to the Album version of Fantasia Flamenca, the entire album sounds a 1/4 tone sharp, so I would say the play back speed of the master tape was running fast. Otherwise he tuned sharp accidentally. (It’s not unheard of, I have done this accidentally attempting to stretch a new set of strings for performance or recording...they probably didn’t use tuners back then for flamenco).

If you are referring to the second video of La Barrosa, it’s a playback (audio is not of the visual film, so it’s possible adjustments are made to synchronize the two. In the same TV segment Pañuelo bulerias was also shot playback and an edit of the sound was clear at the end to avoid the fade out.)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2019 18:26:14

Fitz63

Posts: 104
Joined: May 16 2016

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

I meant the first video. It seemed over a semitone out from capo 2. I just wondered if he might have done that by ear, or whether the video had somehow been speeded up. Thanks, Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2019 19:51:59

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

nice one

quote:

Album version of Fantasia Flamenca, the entire album sounds a 1/4 tone sharp,

Fabulosa Guitarra same, whole album sharp, i wondered if they speeded it up to fit it all on an LP...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 10 2019 11:05:49

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

Fabulosa Guitarra same, whole album sharp, i wondered if they speeded it up to fit it all on an LP...

My guess would be that flamenco guitarists in those days simply didn’t bother to tune to a tuning fork. How do other recordings from that period compare?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 10 2019 17:21:45

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

The guitar can easily be the same one in both vids: it sounds to me like a typical Conde of the sixties.
The bracing pattern of the guitars of that age (at least those I saw) was either like the '67 Conde in the collection of Richard Bruné (a modified Barbero pattern) or a 7 struts (like my '64 Conde).
In my opinion this is a Conde in the Barbero style and sounds lovely even though a little old style.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 10 2019 18:43:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

67 Conde in the collection of Richard Bruné (a modified Barbero pattern

Never saw a barbero pattern even close to this with the parallel sticks:

Paco used several blancas during that period, and of the ones he used live on tv, none of of em was a perfect match for
Fantasia Flamenca IMO.... except for this one (top video).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2019 16:50:42

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Never saw a barbero pattern even close to this with the parallel sticks:

Maybe modified this by making the 5 braces parallel?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2019 22:04:42

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

The guitar can easily be the same one in both vids: it sounds to me like a typical Conde of the sixties.
The bracing pattern of the guitars of that age (at least those I saw) was either like the '67 Conde in the collection of Richard Bruné (a modified Barbero pattern) or a 7 struts (like my '64 Conde).
In my opinion this is a Conde in the Barbero style and sounds lovely even though a little old style.

This is the kind of guitar I love making (or trying to) because it makes your rasgueos sound amazing. I have to say I don't think it suits Paco as well as the later negras because he was never very rasgueo-focused. Awesome guitar though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2019 2:26:01

RobJe

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Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

This is my 65 Conde.

Rob

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2019 12:04:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to RobJe)

Yes my ‘73 is the same. The parallel sticks seem very interesting to me, the modern era Conde kept the same idea with slight variation with extensions all the way up to the sound hole. While I agree that dry detached sound PDL gets is not what he became known for, I have always enjoyed the sound of the guitar an Fantasia Flamenca the most of all his albums. Discographies used to assume that was a negra guitar switched out from Fabulosa but it turns out the exact opposite was the case.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2019 12:23:22

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Discographies used to assume that was a negra guitar switched out from Fabulosa but it turns out the exact opposite was the case.

I’m confused

So Fabulosa was a negra and Fantasía a blanca, or vice versa?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2019 16:20:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

Discographies used to assume that was a negra guitar switched out from Fabulosa but it turns out the exact opposite was the case.

I’m confused So Fabulosa was a negra and Fantasía a blanca, or vice versa?

Correct he used this guitar for Fabulosa:

However in articles it is often mentioned how PDL switched to a negra for a warmer sound on Fantasia... thanks to photos on the album cover i assume, and it perpetuates the wrong idea about flamenco guitar tone imo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2019 18:21:25

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

Yes, this is what I called the Barbero inspired bracing pattern.
Here is clear in detail the Faustino’s version of it:
https://www.rebrune.com/1967-faustino-conde
This pattern - clearly inspired to the Barbero pattern - was probably first used by Santos in one of his last guitars, but in general it’s nothing but a Santos pattern without the 2 extreme fan struts.
Barbero had to go towards thicker tops than Santos with a 5 braces pattern as he had to face the passage from gut to nylon strings.
The fan bracing used by Faustino is just more parallel, but you are basically there. Also the top is in the stiff side.
This pattern was widely used in the Madrid school. Ramirez used an inspired Barbero pattern as well but with the substantial difference of wide opened closing bars (the 2 struts behind the bridge) which contributes to more lateral top stiffness and consequently a more round/controlled outcome, with more sustain.

Coming back to Conde, the typical Faustino age shades in ‘76.
Already in 78 the guitars begin to have different plantillas, and many have 7 + 2 struts with thinner tops.
Different beasts: low pitched, a little muddy in the attack of the note but with more clarity, sustain and overtones.
Some Condes used by Paco in the eighties are like this (the negra version obviously).
Just at the end of the eighties Conde introduces the 2 long bars prolonging under the sound hole but still with thin tops.
The Felipe V bracing pattern appears some years later and has very few to share with the 70ies and 8ies Conde.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2019 0:19:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

The fan bracing used by Faustino is just more parallel,

That’s the whole point... it’s not a “fan” at all because the sticks are not “more parallel”, they are exactly parallel meaning NOT radiating out from a central geometric point.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2019 11:55:40

Echi

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Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

In my opinion, the 5 parallel struts (while important) are just a part of the whole idea with the 2 closing bars.
As I said, Ramirez used 5 parallel struts as well but with different results.
Santos introduced the parallel “fan” bracing some decades before (fan in this case is to refer to the kind of bracing as opposed to lattice).
For sure it’s a feature quite effective in flamenco guitar making but in my opinion, the area behind the bridge and the control of the top transverse stiffness are as much as important..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2019 15:26:06

Echi

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Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

Here the bracing pattern of the late seventies and eighties.
My ‘64 Conde has also a 7 struts pattern spread exactly as in the fan pattern here attached but without closing bars: the bars are also wide as in the old pattern with a thickish top and the resulting tone is typical of the sixties.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2019 22:15:01

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Echi)

Are the top thicknesses of these older Condes thinner than on the modern Filipe V bracing pattern? Also Echi, have you noticed if top doming is used or if they are flat, or a mix?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2019 15:28:41

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Are the top thicknesses of these older Condes thinner than on the modern Filipe V bracing pattern?

Yes they are. The 2 struts more are there to support a thinner top.
BTW, if you take a careful look a the 5 central fan struts, you will notice that they are not parallel but spread with the same angle used in the bracing of Barbero (and Santos before him); as said, the 2 external struts support the thinner top at the top periphery.
Top is slightly domed (2,5 mm probably) with a drop behind the bridge). The back is domed just slightly: overall the look is flattish though. Solid linings are used and thin and tall bracing instead of the Faustino beefy ones.
Guitar making is just extremely clean and precise, the clearest evidence that the guitar was outsourced and not made by Faustino.
Regarding the doming, in my view the point is almost always how parallel is the line of the upper binding to the neck angle.

The 80ies model has a quite large plantilla, is much more resonant, with a lot of overtones and sustain. The guitar is low pitched but very projecting.
It’s not an easy guitar though: the top breaks more easily for rasgueados and the "pulsacion" is quite on the soft side.
A different beast both from the Conde of the sixties and those of the Felipe V era.

The Condes made in calle Felipe V are a different project, merging elements of the sixties Conde and elements of the eighties Conde.
They came back to the stiff top with the result of a more rigid box and“solid” tone and a more focused note.

A clear step in the evolution to the Felipe V model can be seen the guitars made at the end of the eighties (for the 3 shops):
Here is a picture of a top of the time (in this case I took the picture of a 1988 Conde from the website of Malia luthier, but years ago I had for awhile a similar Conde, clearly made by Ricardo Sanchis with the same pattern).
At this time they introduced the 2 long bars protruding beyond the transverse bar but the top was still thin.

Later on in the nineties The Conde of Felipe V kept the feature of the long bars together with the stiff top.
In this case they used a parallel “fan” bracing with 2 closing bars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 17 2019 10:11:44

JasonM

Posts: 2051
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Echi)

Ok, That makes sense to have the 2 side struts With a thinner top. Regarding the evolution of the two struts passing through the lower harmonic bar - Do you think this significantly effects the vibration or does it have a minor effect? Seems like all it does is make the upper bout of the top super rigid. Then again, it’s all part of the overall package. Great, interesting info as always Echi!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 17 2019 15:40:53

RobF

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Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Echi)

Interesting top. Thanks for the photo, Echi.

I was in Mariano’s shop a couple of years ago and he and his son had about five guitars on benches at the stage of having the backs fitted, so I was able to see the bracing of a couple of them which were on a bench near to the customer area. The pattern was similar to what’s shown in your photo, with the apex of the long struts pointing towards the heel end and the outer one’s to the neck, but I don’t recall if it was asymmetrical like that. I don’t think it was.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2019 11:11:49

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

I too saw on Instagram that Mariano use to spread the fan bars in the same way as in the 1998 guitar (plus the 2 closing bars behind the bridge, which are missing in the 88 model).
By chance also my former beloved Sanchis Carpio had the bars spread similarly (in this case without the 2 long protruding bars).

The standard Felipe V model (the same currently used by Felipe Conde) is like what you have seen in Mariano's shop but with the central 5 bars running parallel and the 2 closing bars behind the bridge.
On the web there are many pictures of that pattern.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2019 19:20:10

RobF

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Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Echi)

While the inverse fan of the long bars was unusual enough that I made a mental note of it, I can’t recall how the outer bars lay. I think if the pattern were asymmetrical I would have also noted that, so I’m reasonably certain it was symmetrical. But I don’t remember if the struts directly adjacent to the long bars were parallel or fanned towards the neck.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2019 20:17:24

Echi

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Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

Sometimes an image is worth more than many words.
This is taken by public Mariano’s Instagram page.
In the case of the old Felipe V guitars, the central struts are just parallel.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2019 7:14:27

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Sometimes an image is worth more than many words.
This is taken by public Mariano’s Instagram page.
In the case of the old Felipe V guitars, the central struts are just parallel.

Yes I see now, exactly almost the same as barbero.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2019 12:29:40

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco de Lucia 1968 panaderos and... (in reply to Ricardo)

I probably wasn’t clear: I meant that the model of the sixties is inspired to Batbero but for the parallel 5 bars.
I see no analogises between that plan and the last one but the 5 central parallel struts. Just my 2 cents.