using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch

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etta

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch

On some of my guitars, relative to heat, cold, humidity, the string tension is sometimes too great. I do prefer HT strings, but keep actions low at 2.0 to 2.6 which makes the guitar more accessible but with lots of clarity and projection. But, if a guitar does seem too tight on some days I adjust the tuning to 430 rather than the standard of 440 and it makes the guitar easier to play with only a slight compromise in tone, power, if at all. Some of the differences in tension from day to day may be in the mind set or the hands of the player, but I really do feel that the slight reduction in tension to 430, helps. I do often go back to 440 after several sessions. Of course if you play for singers, or with other guitarists, this cheap trick will not be tolerated. Anyone else out there use this technique? I cannot see any ill effect on the guitar. Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2019 15:42:28

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to etta)

I never done that, but have experianced the feeling of too tight guitar on dry (humid wise) days.

Have you ever red this topic?
A lot of people believe 432 tuning is better forgeneral music.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=223496&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2019 20:07:55

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to gerundino63)

Actually after trying 432 it turns out I prefer it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2019 20:39:32

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to etta)

I don't think it would have any structural ill effect.

Many modern guitars are built with the main air resonance between F# and G. This keeps this resonance away from any of the notes of the equally tempered scale with A=440Hz, a good idea.

Tuning down to 430 Hz is 96.6 cents, almost a half step, so none of the lower tuned notes should hit the main air resonance either.

Since the guitar top is sort of two-dimensional the frequencies of its resonances don't follow the harmonic series. So there's no easy way to predict the interaction of the new tuning with the top's resonant frequencies.

I would expect the tone of the guitar might change somehow, but it does that when you change brands or tensions of strings, or even with the atmospheric humidity, so I'd say it's just a matter of taste.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2019 3:49:44

mrstwinkle

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

I find my Bernal much easier to tune in 432 as it gets less dodgy harmonics, but it is a faff when doing lessons having to retune to 440 so rarely do it any more.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2019 9:27:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to etta)

Carlos montoya used to tune like a fifth down so the strings were like rubber bands. Ridiculous. Most guitars are not tuned F#-G, I find only a handful with tops that thin and bassy like drum heads. Scooped mid range most of em. The vast majority are right at A or between G# and A, such that in almost all cases a notch filter right at A 220 will allow a close mic right on the soundhole, or else it will make the entire guitar sound anemic overall. By most I mean 80-90% from Hauser to Córdoba.

About the 432 conspiracy nonsense, I won’t even go there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2019 10:54:26

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to etta)

Concert pitch wasn't and isn't 440 Hz always and everywhere.
See this on wikipedia

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2019 16:47:00

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to etta)

There are plenty of youtube videos of guitars tuned 440hz vs 432hz, for those who want to compare.

The conspiracy of nazis inventing 440hz is pretty epic

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2019 21:03:38

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to etta)

lots of guitarists like their guitars tuned a little lower than 440 for whatever reason. it sounds quite nice actually, and everytime i pitch my guitar up to 440 again it sounds a little weird.

my current guitar is tuned at C, and I have no idea what it would do if I'd tune it lower. might give it a try.

regarding this 432hz topic: I used to think a lot about this perfect geometry stuff, but it's actually just a random number historically speaking. main pitch changed so many times over the course of time, it changed from 430 up to 435 and finally stayed at 440 until now. one can interpret this esoteric stuff into music, and I actually am a religious person, but music in and of itself is very esoteric. i don't know. i think it's too much.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2019 22:44:38

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: using 430 vs. 440 standard pitch (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Most guitars are not tuned F#-G, I find only a handful with tops that thin and bassy like drum heads. Scooped mid range most of em. The vast majority are right at A or between G# and A, such that in almost all cases a notch filter right at A 220 will allow a close mic right on the soundhole, or else it will make the entire guitar sound anemic overall. By most I mean 80-90% from Hauser to Córdoba.

You can find the main air resonance by singing into the soundhole. You not only hear it, but you can feel the body of the guitar vibrate in your hands. Once you find the resonance you can measure the pitch with a tuner like the Seiko SAT1200. It lights an LED showing the nearest standard pitch, and indicates the deviation from that pitch with a needle that moves over a scale measured in cents=1/100 equally tempered half step.

Here are a few results:

Tom Blackshear cedar/Indian "Rodriguez" classical #325, 2016 F+20 cents

Ramirez cedar/cypress 1a #2126 1967 initials A.M. for Antonio Martinez F#+30 cents

Jose Romanillos spruce/Indian #407 1973 ("modeled on" a 1950 Hauser) F#+40 cents

Arcangel Fernandez spruce/cypress 1982, no serial number, signed and dated on inside
of soundboard G-40 cents

Abel Garcia Lopez spruce/Brazilian 2009 "RB2" G-25 cents

Manuel Contreras Sr. spruce/Brazilian "Doble Tapa" 1991 G+20 cents

I don't claim accuracy better than about 10-15 cents.

The Romanillos and Garcia have slightly smaller Hauser size bodies. The Blackshear and Contreras have the larger bodies. The Ramirez is very close to dimensions I have seen published for Barbero blancas from the 1940s-50s. The plantilla of the Arcangel is just a little bigger than the Ramirez, but the depth of the box is a little less.

I don't dispute Ricardo's experience, or his professional preference for guitars that mic well. My experience has been different, and I never play into a mic except to record.

I have read that older guitars, such as Torres often have much lower resonance, down around E, but I've only played a couple, and didn't try to measure the main air resonance. They certainly had a different tonal balance from any of the guitars mentioned above. They had a deep mellow bass, but still a brilliant treble.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2019 2:02:10