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Planning to pursue classical due to lack of teacher
There are some great classical teachers in my area and im just tired of struggling to learn flamenco online, even through zoom is a challenge, I feel like I have put in twice the effort. It's a shame I can't find any flamenco teachers in my area. I also miss the community and recitals you get with an in person teacher, learning online is very isolating. Anyone else have struggles learning online?
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
I am learning flamenco guitar by myself, because there are almost no traditional flamenco teachers in China. But I improved my skills by accompanying the dancers in the flamenco dance studio. I'm going to be giving a master class with Spanish dance maestro Ursula Lopez in a month's time, which is definitely a challenge, but I think it's something that can be improved.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to hxwhf72752003)
Thats really cool, props to you. I guess I just got sick of trying to do everything myself and that im missing out on other areas my life, like spending time with my kids and what not. I just want to play some music and make progress without getting burnt out, it's so much easier to be directed by an in person teacher and have them correct problems before you have to unlearn them.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
There is absolutely no reason why a classical guitar teacher can’t work with your chosen repertoire (if you have flamenco scores), and assuming he or she is respecting the concept of technique and tone production is by nature different. In otherwords, if they can tolerate not correcting your right hand, they could very well still be helpful regarding musical expression, timing, memorization, and many left hand things.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Ricardo)
Interesting, I’ve never thought of that. I found a teacher through a university music program in my area. It says classical and flamenco, i signed up so well see i guess when he contacts me. Not sure how much flamenco knowledge he has, but you never know. If i went that route i can always get flamenco scores from flamenco explained.com. That said I’ve been having issues sleeping and winding down over the past year or so anyways, perhaps evening classical guitar practice will be more relaxing than flamenco? Seems flamenco is revving me up in the evening instead of relaxing me, especially picado practice. Unfortunately the only time I have to practice is in the evening when kids are sleeping.
Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
Interesting discussion.
It doesn't really compute for me. I know everyone is different but when I wanted to learn flamenco, I can't imagine a scenario where I would've said ah screw it all learn classical instead. I struggled for resources, community, guidance but you just do it and push right?
But maybe this is a reaction caused by a frustration?
So what is it that drives you? Sounds like something other than the music/art form.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Stu)
You’re probably right man, I struggled to enjoy the journey to gain the achievement, so wrong reasons. I actually haven’t touched guitar for almost 6 months due to burnout. I guess I struggled to enjoy the moment as I would push on to the next level basically. The flamenco online program I was on did not help either, as it would pile on more and I guess I just don’t know my limits, I got burnt out pushing myself. 1.5 hours to 2 hours practice a day was too much for my already hectic schedule. It became a chore to fit it in. I think 45 minutes to an hour tops might be more realistic for me, but that would mean dropping off practicing old stuff I would learn. I tried to always keep something from each palo on practice so I don’t forget it, I guess maybe I was looking at it wrong. Say I want to learn a tientos peice, I can learn bulerias another month but with a daily session under an hour a lot of sacrifice will need to be made. I guess that should have meant dropping some of the old stuff to focus on something else? Is it ok to only focus on one or two palos for a few months than switch to something else that peaks your interest? This would mean more than likely the old stuff would be forgotten since of course nothing is written down. That means if someone asked you to play solea for example, you really have nothing to play at that moment in time.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Stu)
I live in western Canada, though i could potentially take my stuff to a classical teacher as Ricardo said. I just joined flamenco explained by Kai Narezo to get back into it. So far the tutorial videos are so much better to explain everything. It’s pretty simple how the piece sounds in the rythym and compass and he explains it really well in the videos. I’ll give it another shot and hopefully find a classical or jazz guitar teacher that can help me further. At least i have a good flamenco foundation and have learned all the techniques.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
well , not all "teachers" or players can really teach or have the right aproach to you/me/them , at person or online , even some diverse youtu. videos, to some might work to others dont , it depends if you connect with their teaching style/aproach. Theres a lot of repetition (for me at least..) and i have my learning "timming" , so at person its not that productive.
onlineflamenco.com seems great , they can give you some Guide/study plan and you can work at your own pace with a lot of content and everything well explained each step , very well structed.
in the USA i think theres a music college or school also with flamenco division , that you can go personal or online if i can recall.
If youre not a total rookie , at person its normaly productive , Ricardo Marlow style seems great and can give (i think) at zoom even if you re rookie , his aproach seems simple so everyone can learn
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
yes that makes a lot of sense, it seems like Kai Narezo really gets teaching online as its a lot easier to understand.
Was going to also ask, when are you supposed to practice? Flamenco is pretty stimulating i would think, is cutting off practice two hours before bed enough? Or is it best to practice in the morning?
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
time management its very personal , it depends lot of issues factors
i try to have two sessions per day , since i have more time at night , i try at lunch half a hour or so , normally just warm up tecnique repetition , at night i study tecnique and some palo parts , right now some Falsetas from Solea
As time goes youll see whats for you , the important is to have minutes with the guitar , even if it sounds like crap and frustration kicks in , at home i turn on the Tv (sports or a crap show) and study/pratice , and i make some pauses to rest (your mental health will thank you) and start again , i do this many times like on weekends .... like i said , short sessions are also great to work on tecnique repetitions , as time goes youll improve
Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
I guess it's tough being isolated from a community of musicians that you want to be involved in.
How old are you? Responsibilities etc? Get a one way ticket to Andalucía?
I've never really used online learning that much. I learned from early ground work from books and teachers....
But enjoy studying online material now. But it can be overwhelming for sure there's a lot not.
I'm not sure what to say really. But I wouldn't let lack of a formal face to face teaching experience let you give up learning flamenco.
I mean I was and still am so hungry to learn more that the thought of settling for something else wasn't and isn't an option.
You can make it happen. But perhaps you need some focus/guidance in your learning? (Which you feel you'd get from one to one sure,)
Stay inspired. That's the key for me.
Also regarding what to learn. Sounds like you jump about a bit. I used to do that. But stick to the main Palos. Immerse in them. Find as much inspiring material/falsetas etc as you can for those.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Stu)
I would love to do that in Spain, that was my dream actually, but I have young kids. I’m 33 and both my wife and I work full time. I’m a local business owner and we also live on a small farm, no animals though just the land to maintain. Things are pretty busy in general. Kids are really fulfilling but as you can imagine, it’s means alot less time to pursue demanding hobbies. I didn’t actually jump around at all, but got burnt out trying to do too much and had unrealistic expectations. Unfortunately life gets in the way, and than trying to fit practice in becomes a stressor. Unfortunately the late evening practice before bed eventually started to cause insomnia, it would keep me up as it’s stimulating, especially with the more intense practice.therefore, I have to find another time of the day to do it making it even more challenging to fit in the day. The morning is likely ideal.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
Just a cup of tea in the morning and thats it. I actually quit caffeine since October but started drinking it again this month. I dont notice a difference either way with the caffeine. This sounds really stupid, but I did a genetic test that found my brain metabolizes dopamine slower than others, causing it to build up in the brain. I guess it makes sense since anything intense for me in the evening makes it harder to sleep at night, I've pretty much always been this way but didn't know why. Of course that depends if you believe in all the genetic testing. It didn't matter as much before kids, but now that im older and when my daughter is sick all the time (she has asthma) now sleep is a luxury in my household, lol. Nothing like some intense picado or rythym practice to wake you up. I guess early morning is best than?
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
i know what it feels i allways been with asma , and it was really bad till my 9/10 years old.
as a father i had the same issue in first years , my daughter have atopic ezcema skin, the first year was horrible... after that had cronic otitis (still has), didnt had the patience to do others things than work (because i had to lol) Its hard , but better with the years.
maybe now its not the time for you to do other things , if you are that kind of person that really compromisse with things , maybe time to relax and find something that can relax you and not the oposite.... poor hour sleep and more negative stimulous may kill your testorone , because will increase a lot your cortisol (stress) levels and you ll be unpatience and stressed all the time
did you try "melatonin" capsule before bed? like half a hour before or even legal cannabis ? can help in harsh times
one thing that work really well is intensise exercise before dinner , not that much bodybuilding but something more aerobic with strength exercise or aerobic and powerlift
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
My daughter has fibril seizures also, we have been in and out of emergency over the past year between that and the asthma aswell, but they seem to be slowly getting better. Wow, sorry to hear that, dealing with health issues of the little one is always really difficult. It's crazy how much having kids can completely change your life. Yeah I take a bunch of vitamins/supplements, I have a prescription for medicinal CBD, I also take L-theanine, zinc, magnesium and melatonin before bed. For exercise, I use to do bodybuilding (not competitively) for 15 years but now I just moderate strength training and do daily walks on days I dont train. I've been pretty good as of late though with sleep, much better without the intense evening practice for sure.
you are probably right about the timing. I mean if I did switch to classical, it's more hypnotizing, meditative and relaxing. It would also keep my fingers trained. I could always switch to flamenco later in life when the kids are older and I have more time I guess.
This video comes to mind in my situation, lol. Though I hope that I dont have to wait until im 71.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
well believe it or not , only this year i really tried ... i had tried before covid but i wasnt prepare mentaly (similiar like you) and wasnt ready for the tecnique i even stoped playing some years , only pick up the guitar very few times.. but i changed all... first i have more stability , and start to play more and thinking "better try songs that are easy and that i enjoy" , so i played some "easy" pink floyd , oasis , linkin park , Stp etc with the electric .... flamenco was allways with me since 98 or so , and since i was playing more and more confortable again the guitar , i gave it an another try One thing that help me a lot with the nylon strings , was to learn some easy classic songs , it will open your world , train new sounds , tecniques etc
I play "flamenco" like crap , but...i was playing way worse in January... the 3 fingers rasgeo was an awesome achievement , never thought that i could do something...still in process, so if i can you also can...
Dont try buleria etc , start with solea , play slow like slow motion...
these two classic are good to develop , therefore learning flamenco will be a little more easier than without any tecnique Start to pratice slow motion section by section only move forward when you learn that section , when go to section 2 or 3 you can start all sections together and glue it , and so on If you tired or start to not enjoying , play some easy track that you love from anything , sometimes i play "flowers " from miley sirus my daughter loves it, its like a gethaway without leaving the guitar
i would start with this boring... but great to start
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
Thanks, I've been working through some pieces from my old RCM book level 3, when I was a kid. I also have Spleen Songs, TISSERAND Thierry. I can read notes (leftover from my classical training when I was a kid) but it's harder past the 6th fret or so which takes some work. The teacher I found apparently does flamenco aswell but specializes in classical. To what degree he works with flamenco I dont know. I wonder why many classical guitarists dabble in it but it never is their main focus. While classical is not rhythmically challenging, or stressful trying to play within compass. It's really challenging to make a nice sound.
Ironically for me the flamenco techniques were my strengths, my weakness was rhythm and tempo. That metronome just stresses me out so I had to force myself to use it all the time. It's funny how flamenco is chaotic but yet very strict in this regard.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
I guess that should have meant dropping some of the old stuff to focus on something else? Is it ok to only focus on one or two palos for a few months than switch to something else that peaks your interest? This would mean more than likely the old stuff would be forgotten since of course nothing is written down. That means if someone asked you to play solea for example, you really have nothing to play at that moment in time.
It might be you are looking at the genre incorrectly. The genre of Flamenco seems small relative to all music genres but the truth it is massive and the artists that do it tend to focus on areas of the repertoire, and always have. Old viejo maestros of cante toque and even baile, continue the learning process of the art till death. There is no “test” ultimately, it is where you decide to take it based on your own tastes. Or rather, you never get to the end of it. Dropping things from the rep is normal as new things are focused on. The guys that have 2hr concerts to fill need time to run the material, hence you end up with Antonio Rey giving a 2hr concert in Russia, proceeding to his hotel, and playing another 3-4 hours late into the night on Facebook live. Barely enough time for anything to be achieved in a single night.
You keep hinting at a softer music or something, which of course flamenco has, but I am sure you know that. There are beautiful complex pieces to spend years working on that are only arpegio, or tremolos abound in palos that are free form, and a huge etc of rep that mirrors the classical guitar aesthetic. In classical guitar rep there is an abundance of atonal music which certainly is not going to help your anxiety. So from my perspective, getting a teacher can have 3 functions, regardless of genre:1. Feedback to your own playing ability. 2.Advancement in the genre, and 3. If you don’t really want either, a “guitar friend” to talk to. You need to decide which of those 3 you are truly after. In other words, look internally long and hard about what you want…from my perspective you can achieve it without a teacher most likely. A teacher is a tool for you to use as you need based on those 3 ideals. The repertoire is out there for you to engage with…technique and intermediate to advanced goals are another matter. I don’t need a teacher to engage with classical repertoire as I see fit. I don’t care about right or wrong, since what I do in that genre is typically for my own personal pleasure or enlightenment or whatever. Meanwhile I have professional 3hr gig material I don’t even practice which is in a separate bag altogether.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I guess that should have meant dropping some of the old stuff to focus on something else? Is it ok to only focus on one or two palos for a few months than switch to something else that peaks your interest? This would mean more than likely the old stuff would be forgotten since of course nothing is written down. That means if someone asked you to play solea for example, you really have nothing to play at that moment in time.
It might be you are looking at the genre incorrectly. The genre of Flamenco seems small relative to all music genres but the truth it is massive and the artists that do it tend to focus on areas of the repertoire, and always have. Old viejo maestros of cante toque and even baile, continue the learning process of the art till death. There is no “test” ultimately, it is where you decide to take it based on your own tastes. Or rather, you never get to the end of it. Dropping things from the rep is normal as new things are focused on. The guys that have 2hr concerts to fill need time to run the material, hence you end up with Antonio Rey giving a 2hr concert in Russia, proceeding to his hotel, and playing another 3-4 hours late into the night on Facebook live. Barely enough time for anything to be achieved in a single night.
You keep hinting at a softer music or something, which of course flamenco has, but I am sure you know that. There are beautiful complex pieces to spend years working on that are only arpegio, or tremolos abound in palos that are free form, and a huge etc of rep that mirrors the classical guitar aesthetic. In classical guitar rep there is an abundance of atonal music which certainly is not going to help your anxiety. So from my perspective, getting a teacher can have 3 functions, regardless of genre:1. Feedback to your own playing ability. 2.Advancement in the genre, and 3. If you don’t really want either, a “guitar friend” to talk to. You need to decide which of those 3 you are truly after. In other words, look internally long and hard about what you want…from my perspective you can achieve it without a teacher most likely. A teacher is a tool for you to use as you need based on those 3 ideals. The repertoire is out there for you to engage with…technique and intermediate to advanced goals are another matter. I don’t need a teacher to engage with classical repertoire as I see fit. I don’t care about right or wrong, since what I do in that genre is typically for my own personal pleasure or enlightenment or whatever. Meanwhile I have professional 3hr gig material I don’t even practice which is in a separate bag altogether.
Ahh so you are saying to focus more on Granaína for example? I guess it's the tempo/metronome that stresses me out the most. I can play Granaína fast and at the proper speed, it sounds good (rusty now without the practice). Though when I work within a palo, playing with the metronome just causes me stress for some reason. The tempo and rythym in classical is alot more relaxed, in flamenco is used like ones life depends on it. I suspect this restriction is why there is so much fake flamenco, people like the sound but not all the restrictions around rhythm and compass.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
I guess it's the tempo/metronome that stresses me out the most.
Right, well. No one said rhythm is easy. The ability to control it is what separates the levels, and it is not easy to teach, hence “you have to just feel it”. So realizing the distinction between a “classical” loose interpretation and the correct functional version that would work in performance context is important. But it is not the end of the game. If your goal is to play with other people that are advanced in the genre, then metronome is essential. If your goal is to play in your room to make yourself happy, then you don’t need it AT ALL. That is why I have that video I always link to where I show how I learn a Tomatito buleria falseta in 8 minutes. It demonstrates the amount of effort required to make a single falseta professionally “functional”, yet at the same time attempts to encourage those that view that level of control “daunting”, since in my case it only took 8 minutes which in most people’s schedule, seems doable. But you see the level of focus I am doing there.
I would not ever do that for a Bach piece or even a flamenco falseta that did not plan to execute in a ‘live” situation or juerga or whatever (have a video of chaconne which was an exception, and the Well tempered thing with piano. Even harder than any flamenco I normally do as a pro). So since you already KNOW the distinction yourself, no need to kick yourself about this issue because one genre is “flamenco” and another is “classical”. It is also true that in classical ensemble to play that Bach passage correctly it is no different than the flamenco one. So I suggest you just play whatever you want, and just be honest about what is the purpose and function of the music. Don’t stress in other words. But please don’t walk into a dance class with hours of unprepared repertoire (some people actually do that).
Fakemenco is a different issue. A lot of those guys during the “new age world music” genre push before the streaming music tidal wave hit, were frustrated 80s rock guitarists. They had great rhythm, most of them, and chose a “Spanishy” sounding outlet since they did not want to compete in the rock guitar (grunge) genre with their style. Basically inspired by Dimeola and Mclaughlin to use a pick to do similar Aeolian and Phrygian sounding runs that they might have done with rock guitar years before, but on a nylon acoustic. A few such as Strunz and Farah and Ottmar, learned some of the actual flamenco genre, but realize that the music is not about what the guitar trio was doing, fusing elements, but was based on FORMAL MUSICAL STRUCTURE or palos, defined by the cante first, and compas second. So it is not that their rhythm was wrong or not good, but it was too much depth of study to get into the formal structure of the palos, so they settled on simplified and SUPERFICIAL concepts. That is the “fakeemenco” sound that remains popular today. Elements of melody, harmony and rhythm are present, but minus the deep formal structures.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Ricardo)
That makes a lot of sense. So basically in so many words have realistic expectations since I’m not playing professionally. I’m playing for enjoyment so whether or not I use the metronome is up to me and my goals. I would intend to use the metronome, perhaps just not as much as I should if I were to play professionally. Since my technical skills at the time far surpassed my rhythmic skills, and I don’t like using the metronome, I guess that’s ok given my goals? I was bad, I took my guitar everywhere, I would get anxiety when life got in the way of my daily practice, thus the burnout. The only time I took a break from practice is when I had a bad fever from Covid-19, even than it was only a day. I guess it’s safe to say the expectations for myself were too much and would cause the stress than the music itself. I was obsessed with flamenco and the sound because it speaks to me, classical does not tick the same boxes for me so I don’t think that would ever be a problem in the genre for me. I appreciate classical guitar, just perhaps not as much as I do flamenco.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
well believe it or not , only this year i really tried ... i had tried before covid but i wasnt prepare mentaly (similiar like you) and wasnt ready for the tecnique i even stoped playing some years , only pick up the guitar very few times.. but i changed all... first i have more stability , and start to play more and thinking "better try songs that are easy and that i enjoy" , so i played some "easy" pink floyd , oasis , linkin park , Stp etc with the electric .... flamenco was allways with me since 98 or so , and since i was playing more and more confortable again the guitar , i gave it an another try One thing that help me a lot with the nylon strings , was to learn some easy classic songs , it will open your world , train new sounds , tecniques etc
I play "flamenco" like crap , but...i was playing way worse in January... the 3 fingers rasgeo was an awesome achievement , never thought that i could do something...still in process, so if i can you also can...
Dont try buleria etc , start with solea , play slow like slow motion...
these two classic are good to develop , therefore learning flamenco will be a little more easier than without any tecnique Start to pratice slow motion section by section only move forward when you learn that section , when go to section 2 or 3 you can start all sections together and glue it , and so on If you tired or start to not enjoying , play some easy track that you love from anything , sometimes i play "flowers " from miley sirus my daughter loves it, its like a gethaway without leaving the guitar
i would start with this boring... but great to start
not so boring and yet great
I like this approach though, this is my problem that I take it to seriously. It's supposed to be fun, so just too much expectation. Even if I practice 30 minutes some nights, nothing wrong with that, I just won't make much progress. I was good at the technique for Bulgaria, but my rythym was bad. For some reason I was better with fandangos de huelva, the beat was easier for some reason.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
i guess you have to enjoy whatever youre do , thats why i said to play other stuff that you also like or to rest when you re different ..
last tracks that i played when feelling tired or a little frustrate was Alice in Chains (not a good option i know...lol) , other one was from stone temple pilots etc , nice to relax , next day im fresh to more flamenco If you doing with metronome and you dont like , why do it that way? life its to much stressfull and short to do forced things (if you dont want to go pro, even that you should enjoy the process)
you can also do some other stuff that you enjoy to rest from the guitar , next day or after youre fresh and with will to do more flamenco again
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
i guess you have to enjoy whatever youre do , thats why i said to play other stuff that you also like or to rest when you re different ..
last tracks that i played when feelling tired or a little frustrate was Alice in Chains (not a good option i know...lol) , other one was from stone temple pilots etc , nice to relax , next day im fresh to more flamenco If you doing with metronome and you dont like , why do it that way? life its to much stressfull and short to do forced things (if you dont want to go pro, even that you should enjoy the process)
you can also do some other stuff that you enjoy to rest from the guitar , next day or after youre fresh and with will to do more flamenco again
I guess with the metronome I did that because to play proper flamenco you need to use it. That said, I also know proper flamenco takes years. I guess I wanted to be a really good player, though fitting it in was just possible, though at the expense of everything else in my life including added stress. In reality and given my schedule, just playing it (or trying) should be good enough. I really like your approach to it, I think it's a really healthy approach.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
tap with the foot while pratice some stuff not all , and schedule metronome sessions , like 1 time per week or two for half an hour each or so make some plan and adapt it wherever you feel or like , and do some fine tuning the plan to use metronome to your needs
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
You might try using the metronome just for simple, repetitive technique exercises. This will give your playing a sort of rhythmic stability and make you less vulnerable to Unconscious Tactical Rubato. It’s less stressy than trying to play repertoire against a metronome because you’re not trying to remember what to play while paying attention to the clicks.
Speaking of UTR, I think there’s a fallacy in your reasoning about classical guitar. It’s true that the phrasing can be much more elastic, but you are supposed to be in control of it. You’re supposed to be able to play your classical piece straight and in the pocket, and then decide how to make the rhythm breathe.
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