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At what point does it stop being "flamenco"?   You are logged in as Guest
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soclydeza85

 

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017
 

At what point does it stop being &qu... 
I'm still getting a handle on general flamenco structure. I know compas is very important, as well as technique (you can't play in 4/4 with a pick and call it flamenco), but at what point(s) does flamenco end and another style begin?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 4:42:50
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to soclydeza85) 
When the cantaor can't identify the palo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 5:00:52
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to soclydeza85) 
When the member 'PeakCrackers' decides. The decider.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 7:24:42
 
JohnWalshGuitar

Posts: 517
Joined: Aug. 10 2009
 

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to Leñador) 
Lenny, that could equally just be a case of the singer needing to educate himself. I've seen and met plenty of singers in Spain who only sing and really know a few palos.
Singers aren't all the be all and end all ya know

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 9:04:46
 
Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to JohnWalshGuitar) 
I remember playing Sabicas's Zapateado en Re during a lull at the pena. One guy told me to stop messing around with that classical sh*t and play some flamenco...


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 9:10:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to soclydeza85) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: soclydeza85

I'm still getting a handle on general flamenco structure. I know compas is very important, as well as technique (you can't play in 4/4 with a pick and call it flamenco), but at what point(s) does flamenco end and another style begin?


If one is to make a deliberate fusion of styles, the elements of each style should be clearly identified. For example "Chiquito" by Paco de Lucia....the melody is Anda Jaleo a la Garcia Lorca...the compas is Alegrias or Solea por Bulerias (as opposed to the original setting of the melody por bulerias), but the harmonies used are pretty "jazzy" if you will, and then the section of chord progression having nothing to do with the main melody is a "chart" of chords over which improvisations are made, very much from "jazz school".

So that is one example, but as you see it comes down to specifics.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 10:43:31
 
rombsix

Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to Ricardo) 
If it was played by Paco de Lucia, then it's flamenco. That's what he said.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 12:57:32
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to soclydeza85) 
quote:

Singers aren't all the be all and end all ya know

Shhhhh one may hear you, then we're all in trouble!
I suppose I was being a bit sarcastic, but it should be identifiable by a real aficionado.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 13:19:15
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to soclydeza85) 
As you can tell from the responses to your question, from Lenny suggesting a cantaor, or a "real" aficionado (however that is defined) would know, to Ramzi suggesting anything Paco de Lucia plays is flamenco, there is no defined point at which flamenco ends and another "style" begins. I would wager that if you got a group of "real" aficionados in a room, they would not agree on when flamenco has gone off a cliff and become something else. We can all agree on "core" flamenco palos and playing, but when you get to the outer edges of becoming an "ensemble" and, as Ricardo suggests, becoming much more "jazz," that's where definitions break down, even among aficionados.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 5 2017 14:11:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to rombsix) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

If it was played by Paco de Lucia, then it's flamenco. That's what he said.


No, he said he only knew how to be a flamenco guitarist...not that he didn't attempt to play other music, AS a flamenco guitarist. He also admits trashing falsetas that were not "flamenco" enough for his own taste.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 19:16:37
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

No, he said he only knew how to be a flamenco guitarist...

If i'm not mistaken he also said something like "i call everything i like "flamenco" (wether it was actual flamenco, Bach, Chick Corea or whatever touched his heart :-).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 21:47:48
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to soclydeza85) 
To truly approved as flamenco, you must submit a recording to the Office of Flamenco Purity (OFP), located somewhere in Jerez, but only the locals know where for sure. It it also speculated that the OFP is actually located on the internet and consists of a virtual Star Chamber of disinterested foreign judges.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 22:08:15
 
rombsix

Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

To truly approved as flamenco, you must submit a recording to the Office of Flamenco Purity (OFP), located somewhere in Jerez, but only the locals know where for sure. It it also speculated that the OFP is actually located on the internet and consists of a virtual Star Chamber of disinterested foreign judges.


AKA the flamenco police.

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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 6 2017 22:15:53
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: At what point does it stop being... (in reply to rombsix) 
AKA InterFlamenPol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 7 2017 5:40:51
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