Sabicas " Guitarists have to play their own music.."

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Strudl

Posts: 7
Joined: Nov. 27 2006

Sabicas " Guitarists have to pl...

When is a guitarist flamenco or not ?

This is a hot topic and Sabicas said, like Romerito posted a few days ago,
you have both to play for cante and baile.

I think the point is that as a real flamenco you should be able to accompany both even make your own arrangements for your ensemble...

Of course it is very hard to be very good in both disciplines but in my opinion it is like good ol' Sabicas said to the sixteen year old Paco " A guitarist has to play his own music!".

Only playing "Fuente y Caudal" or hit 160 bpm with a superfast Picado is not Flamenco.

greetz, Christoph!

I'm very interested what you guys think about this topic?

About me: I study classical guitar with Maestro Marco Diaz Tamayo,
and since two weeks I play bass and third guitar in the ensemble of Flaco de Nerja.

www.flacodenerja.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2006 5:50:50

Guest

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

Hi Strudl, for me its important to aim for original compositions eventually, learning material from guitarists i like is really only a means to an end, so i can learn how the maestros weave their majic around the fretboard and techniques they choose to use doing it. I dont see any point in learning something you dont like the sound of, or by a guitarist your not fond of musically or a style/era you dislike.

But i dont think that if somebody chooses to not arrange themselfs but plays other peoples music really well means they arent flamenco, not everybody wants to create their own compositions and theres nothing wrong with that at all. Theres so many good compositions out there to learn. At the end of the day i dont think anything is completely original, just different spins on an idea thats already been done (99.9% of the time).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2006 23:34:20

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

If you accompany the cante or baile, then your a flamenco guitarist. If you can do that, then you can go on to do solo stuff and still be considered a flamenco guitarist. Like Paco and all the other greats.

This is what I have been told by many guitarists in Spain. In my opinion, if you can play in compas, your a flamenco guitarists whether you accompany or not

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 0:10:26

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Strudl)

[Deleted by Admins]

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 0:53:15

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

For that matter, even playing a bit for dance and cante, does that really make you a "flamenco guitarist" I really don't know-I guess it depends on the company you keep, your own self image, and your own definition of a flamenco guitarist. i learned enough to play for dancers and some singing and played gigs, but don't really consider myself a flamenco guitarist-only a guitarist that plays some flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 1:14:28

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Mark2)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 1:36:12

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

Firstly,

Real live dedicated musicians only care about making good music.

They dont care about labels or titles. The couldnt care less what
you say they are or arent. They are way too concerned with perfecting
their skills.

Secondly,
The Sabicas quote is taken out of context imo.
It is Sabicas, talking to Paco. Not for you, or me, to pass on
as universal truth for all.

In reality, there are tons of great guitarists, who dont play their own compostions. You'd have to be pretty sheltered from the world to
not know that. There are tons of great flamenco guitarists who dont
write. You wont be buying their latest album, but that doesnt mean
they're not out there.

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 1:37:29

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to ToddK)

But usually guitarists who accompany at least write their own falsetas to accompany various dance sections even if they aren't pros. That's a whole different thing than writing whole solos. But,except for modern guitarists who get touchy when someone says their latest cd with the trumpet solo isn't flamenco, I think your right about how pros don't give a hoot-they have to be strong enough to ignore negative crap. And I've never heard anyone put that sabicas quote into context,but you make an excellent point. Paco ain't your average bear, and just because he should play his own music doesn't mean everyone should!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

Firstly,

Real live dedicated musicians only care about making good music.

They dont care about labels or titles. The couldnt care less what
you say they are or arent. They are way too concerned with perfecting
their skills.

Secondly,
The Sabicas quote is taken out of context imo.
It is Sabicas, talking to Paco. Not for you, or me, to pass on
as universal truth for all.

In reality, there are tons of great guitarists, who dont play their own compostions. You'd have to be pretty sheltered from the world to
not know that. There are tons of great flamenco guitarists who dont
write. You wont be buying their latest album, but that doesnt mean
they're not out there.
TK

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 1:59:22

Guest

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

I've never heard anyone put that sabicas quote into context

yes, todd puts it into perspective.

Let us never hear that thrashed out, tired old cliche again!!!!.....please, its gettin really, really old.

If anyone else has any more pearls of wisdom, please dont quote that one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 4:04:49

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Guest)

I was playing at a wedding last night, i got there a litlle late the brides father who was sopossed to meet me at the front was a litlle agitated.

soon as i walked up he asked in az hurry " Are you the flamenco guitarist ?"

u can imagine my dilemma having just read this post

I sould have said" No, I am a man who plays a guitar that happens to be a flamenco guitar, and i play some flamenco pieces that happen to be the same as some other people might call flamenco but i do not dare paint myself with that brush"

would have loved to see his face

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 5:03:10

Guest

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Florian)

you make a good point, im thinking this whole discussion is leading to the whole flamenco puro thing(which is completly subjective). If flamenco is your primary style then arnt you a flamenco guitarist? Even if your a begginer and all you play is flamenco, surely still you are a flamenco guitarist, just not as advanced thats all.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 5:08:34

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

you make a good point, im thinking this whole discussion is leading to the whole flamenco puro thing(which is completly subjective). If flamenco is your primary style then arnt you a flamenco guitarist? Even if your a begginer and all you play is flamenco, surely still you are a flamenco guitarist, just not as advanced thats all.

only to the in 8000000 people in your own city outside flamenco who dont know

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 5:15:48

Guest

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Florian)

When exactly is someone ment to say "yes, today i truley became a flamenco guitarist" and how do they define that, or come to that conclusion?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 5:21:34

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

When exactly is someone ment to say "yes, today i truley became a flamenco guitarist" and how do they define that, or come to that conclusion?

when u released a no1 original flamenco cd, and accompany cante and dance, and play with the aire or moraito and technique of Paco.

thats when , dont u know anything ?

(shakes his head)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 5:24:44

Guest

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Florian)

errr, sorry....my mistake.

I find this topic fasinating, so i made a poll

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 5:26:34

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

I cant understand whats so controversial with sabicas or gerardo nunez saying that you need a foundation in song and dance accompaniment?

Flamenco has been around longer than the guitar so flamenco exists with or without a guitar.

And its the understanding of these non-guitarist structures, rhythms and traditions that makes the difference, not if you manage to rip a guitarsolo of a record and manage to imitate the record near to perfection.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 9:23:37

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

In classical music there is tradition to play solos you didnt compose yourself and in jazz to play standards.

These concept have absolutely nothing to do with flamenco where you might compose falsetas to throw in playing with a singer or dancer. Or compose solos if you want to become a soloist.

Of course, part of the formation as a flamenco guitarist is to play falsetas and sometimes complete solos by others but thats a part of learning and no professional guitarist does that other that when teaching or to pay homage to an old master.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 9:32:05

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

quote:

Sabicas said to the sixteen year old Paco " A guitarist has to play his own music!".

Even though half the stuff he played was ripped from Ramon Montoya.

I don't buy that Sabicas was jeleous that Paco was into Nino Ricardo. What it was was that Sabicas was obviously scared because Paco played Sabicas's falsetas BETTER than he could!

So he wisely advised him to give up on making him look bad, and just go into jazz fusion instead!

In regards to when a guitarist is or is not offically "flamenco" or not. It is not so much about the actual guitarist's ability and knowledge, but rather, the knowledge of the person wondering.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 10:46:52

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

When a guitarist has to jump in to a juerga or gig situation thats when being flamenco or not makes the whole difference.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 10:50:01

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

When exactly is someone ment to say "yes, today i truley became a flamenco guitarist" and how do they define that, or come to that conclusion?

For me it was someday a friend of mine gave me a video from paco.

Until that time i only played some blues and heavy metal stuff.

I watched that video (it was the concert at the germaninger jazztage in Germany 1996) and suddenly i got goose bumps (i hope this is the right english translation).
I watched that video again and again the whole day.
I knew paco songs also before bit never had that feeling.
I think that day i understood the soul , the emotions . I really was profoundly touched by those rythms and melodies.

Believe it or not, from that day i didnt play my electric guitars anymore.
I had an Ibanez electric guitar and a marshall amp.
I sold that equipment and bought a cheap flamenco guitar and started!

I must admit that i have never played together with a dancer or singer. Also because i am still not good enough to do that, but i proudly call myself a flamenco guitarrist because i am sure that i understand the music.

Un Saludo. Arash

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 11:27:15

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

So he wisely advised him to give up on making him look bad, and just go into jazz fusion instead!

I wouldn't call myself a guitarist, let alone a Flamenco guitarist.
A guitarist, to me is someone who plays the guitar professionally or semi-professionally or at least does some playing in public.

As a listener though, I think of someone as a really good Flamenco guitarist when they can play without a trace of "foreign accent".
This is completely separate from technical proficiency

This of course is really hard to define, but it's a bit like a good English actor playing an American and having a "not bad" American accent.
It sort of spoils the performance, even though the acting may be very good.

As I said, it's really hard to define, because you never even think about it when it's not there, but it's noticeable when it is.

I'm beginning to sound like Donald Rumsfeld here, so I better sign off.

cheers

Ron

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A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 11:33:26

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

quote:

Also because i am still not good enough to do that, but i proudly call myself a flamenco guitarrist because i am sure that i understand the music.

Im sorry to be a pain, but i have to repeat that flamenco is more than feeling it and about the guitar, its about understanding the forms and traditions and as a guitarist you are required to be able to shoulder being an accompanist and interact with dance and especially song.

Its not about opinion its about tradition.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 11:35:27

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

man i am too drunk to read all this, i just wanna know one thing sonikete am I a flamenco guitarist or not ? I dont care about anyone else screw em lol everyone for themselfs.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 13:35:42

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

quote:

man i am too drunk to read all this, i just wanna know one thing sonikete am I a flamenco guitarist or not ? I dont care about anyone else screw em lol everyone for themselfs.

You do the stuff one would expect from a flamenco guitarist, playing with singers and dancers and you like me are doing what we can to become better i guess.

But i would leave the judgment of the "flamenconess" of mine or your playing, to someone who are brought up in the tradition.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 13:41:17

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

i know a guy who knows a girl whos parents grew up there, think i should ask them ?

and u will accept whatever they say ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 13:52:54

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas " Guitarists have t... (in reply to Strudl)

I was only talking about the tradition they way i was taught and the way i percieve it. And id leave it up to people to decide for themselves if they agree with me on this or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2006 14:02:05