Tips on continuous rasgueado

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rob2966

Posts: 19
Joined: Dec. 7 2015

Tips on continuous rasgueado

Hi there,

I am looking for tips (video maybe) of how to work on my continuous rasgueado (e-a-m-i-e-a-m-i-e-a-m-i....).

Particularily, how to work on the transition so that it is is smooth (i.e. continuous). I suspect my problem is that my fingers aren't "re-loaded" (for lack of a better term) when I strike the "i" and that is where my delay is coming from.

Hoping I have been clear enough in my description, appreciate the help.

Thanks
Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 20:27:58

Piwin

Posts: 3562
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

Am I correct in understanding that you're not doing an upstroke with the index finger? The usual continuous rasgueado I've encountered in flamenco is done with an upstroke of the index finger, with patterns like eami(down)i(up) or amii. It's definitely easier to get a smooth cycle going by doing that than by switching straight from i down to e down.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 21:07:01

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

Juan Martin has a instructional video on Granainas where he shows the continous rasgeo without the upstroke.
Very oldschool technique. Maybe you can fin it on youtube

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 21:21:02

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 21:24:05

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

I have been working on the same thing for months.
Its really hard, you just have to keep at it.
Use a metronome to slowly work up the speed.
I find my hand gets really tight, need to relax.
Juan Martin and Juan Serrano both do it well but differently.
Juan Martin is more of brushing sound.
Juan Serrano starts with i finger which helps i to e transition as Shroomy said and has a more distinct sound. Its a good way to practice but I still prefer to play e-a-m-i. You can also play the notes as triplets to make things more even. And I practice it a lot while in the car, but its the same is playing it on the guitar.

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 21:36:10

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

Hmmmm I practiced this until I got pretty good at it because my teacher was a big pusher of JM's books and I had plans to meet JM and take a class while I was in Spain. (Which I did and kinda regret but that's a different story.) Since then, I moved to different teachers, worked with different dancers, singers, and players and have done A LOT more listening and might have to say......is it really worth the effort to learn?? I have NEVER used it lately and am not even sure if I can still do it but I'm a much better player than when I could do it. As Koenie said it's a pretty old school technique and most people you'll work with now don't want that sound, it's very specific.
I'd spend my time perfecting a good abanico or morote......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 21:55:44

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 21:58:08

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

quote:

So Leñador, how do you do the traditional Solea compas? You never do the traditional continuous rasgueados back to back?

I do the 3 finger one that appears to be more common nowadays. Or some sort of abanico. I feel like I just don't see/hear tons of pinky rajeo in recent times.
This is an old one I put up for the swap shop a while back but I'm playing super slow so you can see which one I mean.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:10:55

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:25:20

Piwin

Posts: 3562
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Guest)

quote:

It is easier to get the continuous rasgueado sound when doing all fingers as downstrokes since they all have the same sound. So if you can master the 'i' to 'e' transition, which is easily attained by practicing the mechanics slowly, then you can obtain the waterfall effect quicker.

Then we just really don't have the same pinkie finger my friend!

The entire issue of four finger rasgueado is getting any kind of strength out of the e finger not so much the upward index stroke IMO. Then again I suppose it depends on each person's anatomy (if I lay my e finger across the strings, I get between the 3rd and 2nd string, so it obviously makes no sense for me to use it on "full" rasgueados). I personally don't use e at all except for quintuplets and from time to time buleria rasgueados as it does give a specific sound. As for the i upward stroke, it only requires a bit of work to "stabilize" the volume, the same way you'd work on stabilizing the sound of a picado if one finger is stronger than the other. It's boring work but not at all difficult.

As for usage, I'd put it the eami up there with the old school alzapua. Very nice when pulled off properly but extremely rare and not really worth the effort if you haven't already mastered the "standard" version of it (unless of course you're studying specifically the style of very old-school flamenco, in which case, by all means eami)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:30:48

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Hmmmm I practiced this until I got pretty good at it because my teacher was a big pusher of JM's books and I had plans to meet JM and take a class while I was in Spain. (Which I did and kinda regret but that's a different story.) Since then, I moved to different teachers, worked with different dancers, singers, and players and have done A LOT more listening and might have to say......is it really worth the effort to learn?? I have NEVER used it lately and am not even sure if I can still do it but I'm a much better player than when I could do it. As Koenie said it's a pretty old school technique and most people you'll work with now don't want that sound, it's very specific.
I'd spend my time perfecting a good abanico or morote......

I completely agree, its personal preference if you want to try to master a difficult technique that most players do not use or need to use. Another one I discovered lately is the Pepe Habichuela m-m-i-m its tempting to add that to the practice routine.

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:31:45

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

My first teacher really had that old school ras down-he sounded like a train coming down the tracks. He really didn't do the Marote one so that was one of his main ones. I practiced it for years and never got it as good as him. I pretty much abandoned it in favor of the Marote mostly because I was way better at it. I still use it but not so much as a continuous ras. IMO, the best way to even out that ras, and other ones, is to mentally add one extra stroke. IOW, when you are playing the four stroke ras think five strokes in your mind. That way, when you count five strokes, every group will require a different finger to be the "one"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:35:23

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Leñador)

Ole Lenny! Great compas.

Rob, no matter what finger pattern you're working on here is something you can try. Put on a groovy solo compas track of any palo - ideally one with many variations to inspire you. Then improvise different rhythmic patterns slowly but keeping always the same finger order and always striving for perfect compas. Search for a rhythmic pattern that will start with a different finger each compas, repeating that a few times will ensure each finger is developing independence, you should aim to get the same tone no matter which finger starts the pattern. If you feel any stiffness then change technique for a while (arpegio, picado, pulgar, alzapua,...). Invent patterns, start slowly, but try to increase the number of rapid notes in succession within each pattern. Just practicing one technique alone for hours is a recipe for repetitive strain, so mix it up, get inventive, keep it fresh and keep exploring. Also, if you're getting tension think about your posture and adjust, or if that doesn't work get up and do some exercise ~ like walking to the fridge to get a beer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:38:27

Piwin

Posts: 3562
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

I completely agree, its personal preference if you want to try to master a difficult technique that most players do not use or need to use. Another one I discovered lately is the Pepe Habichuela m-m-i-m its tempting to add that to the practice routine.

Agreed that it's mainly personal preference. The Habichuela technique sounds ridiculously good. The man has tree trunks instead of fingers it seems. I've noticed Diego del Morao has a few very odd rasgueado patterns. I've haven't had time to work out what exactly the patterns are since the ones I noticed were por bulerias (and too fast for me to work out without slowing down the video) but he does seem to get a very personal sound out of it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:38:55

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:39:38

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

Also, when you strike with the pinky, try to start retracting it right away. It tends to lag, making it not ready for the next stroke.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:40:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

Thanks Dud!

I was just thinking and I do use eamii here and there but not generally while people are dancing. More when I'm just playing for myself and wanna be super libre and expressive. The first dance teacher I played alone for I used the eamii and she turned around and said "What is that rajeo? I don't like that, use another one!" Since then I've been pretty sparing with it lol.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:44:18

Piwin

Posts: 3562
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Hehe you know what they say about men and the size of their pinkies lol

Hahaha. Touché. Though there's another saying that says width matters more than length. Ahem

To be honest I'm not really sure what people mean with this "waterfall effect". I've never studied flamenco in English so I'm not familiar with the term.

quote:

I feel that modern rasgueado has evolved to be more percussive in attack and not so flowing as before like PP or Sabicas.

Interesting you should say that. I personally have the opposite impression. You know, the whole "modern flamenco just doesn't have the same contundencia it used to" idea...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:46:40

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes
Another one I discovered lately is the Pepe Habichuela m-m-i-m its tempting to add that to the practice routine.

Que? What gives? 3 m strokes in a pattern of 4? So to make it continuous he switches downs to ups (and vice versa) each repition?

No lo comprendo!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:47:56

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:48:38

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

quote:

I am looking for tips (video maybe) of how to work on my continuous rasgueado (e-a-m-i-e-a-m-i-e-a-m-i....).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 22:59:37

Piwin

Posts: 3562
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Ok, here are two examples: Look at this video first minute or so for what I consider waterfall effect:

Thanks. I think I get it. I've just always associated that effect with the five-notes per beat pattern, no matter what the fingering really is. It's like the end of Zapateado en Re by Sabicas. I may be wrong, but I also associate this kind of "sweeping" rasgueado with solo guitar and not so much with accompaniement. Even the quintuplet rasgueados seem more fleshed out in accompaniement.

And how the hell did you know that that ruedas by Vicente is exactly what I've been working on this week?!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 23:09:05

Piwin

Posts: 3562
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

Que? What gives? 3 m strokes in a pattern of 4?

It's a variation of the Jimi Hendrix rasgueado:

a-m-i-tooth-a-m-i-tooth, etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 23:14:50

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rombsix)

Pepe (Romero) He lives in the same town as me, do you think he would show me how to do it?

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 23:15:23

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes
Another one I discovered lately is the Pepe Habichuela m-m-i-m its tempting to add that to the practice routine.

Que? What gives? 3 m strokes in a pattern of 4? So to make it continuous he switches downs to ups (and vice versa) each repition?

No lo comprendo!!

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_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 23:19:10

Leñador

Posts: 5237
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From: Los Angeles

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rob2966)

I dunno man, I wouldn't take flamenco lessons from Pepe Romero......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 23:35:20

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Cervantes)

Can someone make a slow video showing the Pepe Habichuela pattern? Or at least explain it in more details? For example, which of those m strokes is from basses to trebles, and which of them is from trebles to basses, etc.? I am not sure what the up and down arrows mean in that image.

Which book is that from by the way? Is it a reliable source?

Going up and down with the middle finger feels super awkward! Are you sure Pepe is not doing the up stroke with the index finger?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 23:46:39

Piwin

Posts: 3562
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

Que? What gives? 3 m strokes in a pattern of 4? So to make it continuous he switches downs to ups (and vice versa) each repition? No lo comprendo!!

It's just a two-finger rasgueado. Where most would play imi, Habichuela plays imm or mim (m i down, m up, etc.). Then you add this pattern on a 16th note pattern and you get what Cervantes is talking about. Habichuela also plays this as nonuplets (i.e. 3 times mim per beat) por solea where many would play an abanico instead. The end result is more percussive.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 23:53:56

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Tips on continuous rasgueado (in reply to rombsix)

Maybe this?

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2016 23:55:05