taranta-mineira question; cante accomp

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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

taranta-mineira question; cante accomp

Hey folks - I'm going through some basic accompaniment chord progressions, and was working on Taranta.
Then I listen to Camaron's "Donde Se Divisa El Mar" and on first listen, it sounds like mineira to me. Never mind that it's listed as a "Taranto" and not "Taranta", but can anyone help explain why it's listed as a Mineira? I've begun transcribing and it's in mineira key if I'm not mistaken.

I know they're both from the same mineira family. But I thought Taranto was in rhythm, whereas Taranta is free, and it's sung freely. (I think)

But as far as the details, are they really as interchangeable as this mis-listing might suggest? Letra wise, are they very similar?

Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2014 1:01:29

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to turnermoran)

use the search, there is a ton of stuff about this in the archives, some really interesting discussions and contributions etc.

a quick précis as I understand it:

Taranto cante is similar/related but less ornamented than Taranta.
Both are cante libre, but when sung for dance Taranto cante is usually used and put into compás.
The dance is then called Taranto (even if the singer sings other styles)

Minera is another related song style, usually/traditionally accompanied in F# the same as Tarantas.
(Ramon) Montoya made a toque libre solo composition like a Tarantas but in G# and called it "Mineras"
Paco de Lucia used that to accompany Camaron singing Mineras cante.....

I think that's the gist of it, I might have made some mistakes there, or got some of the details wrong, so it's worth checking.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2014 7:29:58

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to turnermoran)

I have various records with mislabeled pieces (for instance two tracks having reversed data and even records including different tracks then intended) so you can't trust everything that is printed. I don't know enough of cante to judge that part, but Paco is definitely playing mineras.

A friend of mine once asked what i thought of his new record (flairck encore). I was reluctant to say one side of the record sucked as hell. To my relieve it turned out to be a miss print and the side i disliked was a totally different group of musicians playing extremely experimental keyless music. The other half of the record contained a life version of his beautiful 12 string guitar song Aoifa performed with a symfonic orchestra. It was a real pleasure to play that guitar part myself on top of that record.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2014 17:30:48

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to mark indigo)

Thanks Mark. I did a search and I guess I didn't have the magic words. Nothing comes up on the Foro or Google.
A frequent problem...

I did not know the Minera toque was Montoyas contribution. That and the rondena thing too, huh?
How cool.. Gotta check out more history..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2014 17:35:44

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

Erik - yes, the mislabeling thing is not surprising. Something I see frequently, that I would think has at least something to do with the culture gap between record label executives and gitanos! :)

I'm sure there are other reasons beyond that.

But from a cante point of view, I wonder if it is legit in this case to call that song a Taranto even though the accompaniment is Mineira. Which according to Mark, sounds like the answer is yes?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2014 17:38:51

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

I did a search and I guess I didn't have the magic words. Nothing comes up on the Foro or Google.
A frequent problem...

Taranto, tarantos, taranta, tarantas, minera, mineras..... have a look at these threads, you might need to scroll through the discussions to find the relevant posts

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=140827&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=tarantos

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=130624&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=189858&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=mineras&tmode=&smode=&s=#190208

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=112499&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=mineras&tmode=&smode=&s=#112570

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=122949&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=mineras&tmode=&smode=&s=#123884

.....post from Ricardo way down the bottom of this page http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=244490&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=tarantas&tmode=&smode=&s=#244503

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2014 11:00:59

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to mark indigo)

bump - did any of this help?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2014 13:01:51

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to mark indigo)

mucho carne pa' comer aqui... ;)

short answer: YES.

long answer: I'll have to read through these and digest.

Thank you!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2014 7:18:10

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to mark indigo)

Mark - these were indeed very helpful. Just read one thread in which Ricardo Norman and Romerito debated much of this. And now Ricardo's point that Romerito's deleting of his posts was a real bummer because the Foro is a living document. So evident when trying to read all this great info and having the gaps from the deleted info.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2014 15:59:10

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

Ricardo's point that Romerito's deleting of his posts was a real bummer because the Foro is a living document. So evident when trying to read all this great info and having the gaps from the deleted info.

totally

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2014 16:26:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: taranta-mineira question; cante ... (in reply to turnermoran)

It's hard to search for specific topics like this. Here is a condensed form of my opinions.

Cante: Minera is a melody, part of cantes de la mina family. Hard to distinguish from Taranta and others as it follows much of the same form. Taranto is the most easy to recognize in the family I would say, and is often the least ornate. Others that use a different harmonic structure such as Cartagenera are also a bit easier to pick out. Understand that during a single performance, artists such as Camaron will mix serveral different song forms in a performance as they feel, and the guitars just accompanies all in the same key as the first cante. But as a label for the performance only ONE of the cantes will take over....for example...perhaps he sings taranta, minera, and ends with Cartagenera...it just gets called "TARANTA". Guitar might accompany, depending on vocal range and falsetas desired, in Taranta key (F#), Minera key (G#) or even Granaina key for females (B).

Baile: Taranto is the catch all name for a dance that might use a number of the above cante de la minas, but set to a rhythm of 2/4. Often the feel of tientos/tangos is used and even cante por tangos or even rumba can end the dance after speeding up with footwork. THere may also be free cante sections that my use other cante de la minas forms such as cartagenera or levantica. THe Taranto melody tends to work best for the 2/4 slow section as it is least ornate and easy to manipulate over the imposed compas of guitar. But there is no rule, and taranta, levantica, minera etc can be used if done with skill and taste. For sure it is more constraining way to sing and I have seen so many second attempts to mesh best with a dance choreography during rehersals.

Guitar: Typically we base solos on the traditional keys, F# for Taranta free style, if you put a little 2/4 into you can call it Taranto, Minera in G#. Modern approaches use alternate tunings or modern keys (such as C# for minera, or Tomatito's unique taranta tuning).
As discussed above, playing for cante depends more on the singers range and either F# G# or B granaina can be used for any of the cante de la minas.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2014 18:11:26