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I suppose every flamenco guitarist has done practice to learn playing in compas. Therefore, as a beginner, I would really like to hear good methods to practice guitar playing in compas from the more experienced. Unfortunately for me it's difficult at least for now to concentrate on the compas and playing, except in rumba. Simply knowing/feeling at all times on what beat I'm on and where I should end the phrase is difficult. Foot tapping? Compas program? Counting, no counting? Anything else? Links?
Well.............I'm not experienced by any means but my teacher is very keen on having his students count out loud along with the metronome. I couldn't do this at all at first, but I have come to see the benefit since it does help me put / keep things in compas. I'm a little better at it now, but I still find it quite difficult.
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The universe is indeed expanding - to get away from this planet.
the biggest mistake many newcomers make is to just play a whole falseta straight through, full speed and try to squeeze it into a compas loop/program. it takes forever to really "get it" and once you do, you become dependent on the compas loop.
try this. take one falseta, compas pattern, whatever. just one manageable thing for now. now break it up into even more manageable pieces. so let's just say beats 1,2,3. forget the rest for now.
figure out exactly which notes land on those beats. it's easier if you have written music since you can see it visually right there, but if not, that's okay. it'll just take a little bit longer.
now play that bit with your foot tapping on EACH beat. each beat is important, and the whole piece needs to be rhythmically correct, not just the accents. if you get the right notes to land on the right accents but everything else is sloppy, you're still not in compas. go super slow if you need to. remember, you're practicing, not performing.
just play those three beats on loop over and over. counting can very helpful but it is not super necessary. just know it's 123. really, it's all about muscle memory and making the connection so in the future, you don't even have to think about it. do the work now so you won't have to later.
now take another bit, say 456 and do the same procedure as above. once you get it, connect the two and play it over and over.
keep doing this until you get the whole 12 counts. make sure each note is rhythmically aligned with itself, the previous, and the next note. EVERY beat matters, not just 3,6,8,10,12.
once you know FOR SURE that everything is aligned, figure out which notes land on the accents. this shouldn't be hard since you already figured out where each note is. now you can try tapping only the accents.
to tighten everything up, work with a metronome. but in the beginning, just focus on finding where everything is, with the help of your foot.
it seems like a lot of work but you're saving yourself time in the future by not having to figure out how something goes into compas and you've already ingrained it into your muscle memory a certain (the wrong) way. it takes something like 5x as long to unlearn something and then to relearn it than it does to just learn something correctly from the start.
here ricardo is basically doing as i described above. but his foot is playing every other beat. 12,2,4,6,8,10. at this speed (bulerias,) this is easier than tapping every beat. plus he is advanced so he can still feel the note durations correctly even though his reference point (his foot) is two beats apart.
but for beginners, i think it's easier to have a reference every beat. from there, you can learn to tap every other beat, just the accents, etc.
your biggest enemies will be trying to play too fast or too much too soon.
If you're able to 'groove' in rumba then you're already most of the way there. You probably just need to get more comfortable with other types of grooves.
Buleria is more advanced because of the hemiola (mixing 6/8 and 3/4), but what about tango? It's in 4/4 just like rumba.
In addition to anthony and yojimbo's excellent suggestions, I would recommend sitting with a tango loop, tap your foot and play A/Bb or even just A, make it sound solid - doesn't need to be fancy. Once you become comfortable (it can take a few minutes) try changing small things (add/remove an accent, note, chord, etc) while still feeling the beat.
It might take a few tries, but it's not rocket science. Most importantly - make it fun!
Why don't you upload a short video? I'm sure you'll get some decent and more specific advice.
..............try this. take one falseta, compas pattern, whatever. just one manageable thing for now. now break it up into even more manageable pieces. so let's just say beats 1,2,3. forget the rest for now.
figure out exactly which notes land on those beats. it's easier if you have written music since you can see it visually right there, but if not, that's okay. it'll just take a little bit longer.
now play that bit with your foot tapping on EACH beat. each beat is important, and the whole piece needs to be rhythmically correct, not just the accents. if you get the right notes to land on the right accents but everything else is sloppy, you're still not in compas. go super slow if you need to. remember, you're practicing, not performing..............
This is excellent advice and is pretty much how I try to learn things, except that I try to have the metronome and the oral counting as soon as possible. That means I play it really slow while I'm memorizing it but once I have the whole thing it is in compas and it's much simpler to speed it up after that. Not that I can speed it up a whole lot at my level.
I have trouble finding all the beats myself so I have my teacher tell me - I wish I could get over that but so far I can't. I also get him to play it slowly with the metronome on and him counting all the beats - my lessons are via Skype these days so I can record this for later viewing. It helps me to have a record of it being played perfectly in time with counting.
You know, I kept typing 'beasts' instead of 'beats' when I was writing this post - I do find the beats to be rather beastly.
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The universe is indeed expanding - to get away from this planet.
Thanks. I'm having much more trouble being aware of the compas(what beat I'm on) than playing in time(altough I have work with that too). I'm sure there's more methods for practicing?
Yojimbo, who do you get your lessons from please? I need to start some very soon
and thanks for the excellent advice, at_leo_87 , when you are working alone, as I do, every piece of advice is a great help. I'm working on Siguiriyas at the moment, that compas is slow and easy to start with, or seems to suit me anyway
Tele, What I've found helpful was working with palmas. For instance, lets use Tangos as Chester mentioned. Tap your foot on the first beat then clap on beats 2,3,4 followed by your foot tap again on beat one etc... Just groove on this for a while then when you get a feel for the "gallup" of Tangos, pick up your instrument and try it with the A to Bb basic pattern. Use a golpe on beat one starting on the Amaj chord followed by the 2,3,4 strokes then change to Bb with a golpe again on beat one followed by 2,3,4 strokes.
The other thing I would recommend is go over to Flamenco-Teacher.com and buy the basic Tangos lesson by Ricardo. His lessons are very good at explaining the compas and more importantly showing the proper techniques of the particular palo you want to learn. Start with Tangos as its easier to understand the compas than Bulerias and have fun! Sig--
I recommend going to **************.com, there you will find the tools necessary to practice compas of all flamenco palos.
Well, it seems that's the only reason why you are on the forum anyway. I don't think spam message wil be appreciated by the foro members and probably the admins will delete your posts anyway...
I personally hope they will detele all the URL's you have posted, so it gets less tempting for Search Engine Optimization spammers here...
I personally hope that people who seek help to improve the practice of flamenco, find the place that suits your needs. The Flamenco compas if you live in Andalucia since childhood so naturally assimilate. Otherwise you have to rely on tools to help you.
Can anyone advice me, on how to practice to keep track of 12 beat compas? I really find it hard to play and keep attention on what beat I'm on. For example keeping track of 3 and 10 in bulerias and 10 in solea. I know these things have to be in the spine, but I need tips on methods to practice this. Thanks
There's no substitute for playing basic compas over and over for a long time, everyday. It'd be great if there was a short cut but there's not. Eventually each beat of the compas will have a different feeling to you and your not counting but if someone asked what "what beat is that on?" You would know because you can relate the feeling to a number. 10 in bulerias feels like 10 in bulerias, 3 feels like 3, 10 in solea feels like 10 in solea.
Can anyone advice me, on how to practice to keep track of 12 beat compas? I really find it hard to play and keep attention on what beat I'm on. For example keeping track of 3 and 10 in bulerias and 10 in solea. I know these things have to be in the spine, but I need tips on methods to practice this. Thanks
It's all about patterns that make phrases. Palmas, strumming gutiar, cajon, singing a line of verse etc...all these have unique phrases that you must learn exactly. After you learn one and get it down you learn another...and an other...and a small variation on one you knew before, then another small variation, then a whole new pattern etc etc.
So how do you learn A PATTERN is the real question you need to be asking. If you can't pick it up by ear yourself, you NEED A TEACHER TO SHOW YOU ONE.
Here is palmas bulerias. The unseen dimension of this pattern is your foot or internal pulse. Good luck.
Listen to good flamenco albums is all. Cante is the best compás school. I got an album from my teacher from La familia de los Zambos only bulerías. I listen to that album every day and it helped me a lot. I think one day you get it, you start to feel every thing in your life in compás. I'm already walking por bulería Then you have to get that perfect timing, every note has to fall in the rhythm obviously, thats the hardest part i think. But first you have to feel the compás.
It's all about patterns that make phrases. Palmas, strumming gutiar, cajon, singing a line of verse etc...all these have unique phrases that you must learn exactly. After you learn one and get it down you learn another...and an other...and a small variation on one you knew before, then another small variation, then a whole new pattern etc etc.
So how do you learn A PATTERN is the real question you need to be asking. If you can't pick it up by ear yourself, you NEED A TEACHER TO SHOW YOU ONE.
Here is palmas bulerias. The unseen dimension of this pattern is your foot or internal pulse. Good luck.
Thanks, but I don't quite understand how this comes over good sense of compas, can you explain?
By phrases do you mean for example the tangos Bb-A phrasing which we can hear in almost every tangos version? By that I would guess you mean through playing these "elements" of different flamenco styles one can acquire sense of compas very well? Do you think it's more important than trying to feel one's location in the compas?
It's all about patterns that make phrases. After you learn one and get it down you learn another...and an other...and a small variation on one you knew before, then another small variation, then a whole new pattern etc etc.
So how do you learn A PATTERN is the real question you need to be asking. If you can't pick it up by ear yourself, you NEED A TEACHER TO SHOW YOU ONE.
Here is palmas bulerias. The unseen dimension of this pattern is your foot or internal pulse. Good luck.
Thanks, but I don't quite understand how this comes over good sense of compas, can you explain?
If i play the pattern enclosed in Ricardo's original post my foot can immediately find/add the underlaying pulse. The pattern starts right on the beginning, but even when it had started halfway i would immediately have found my way to the underlaying pulse because i know that pattern...in the same way you know the steering is in front of the driver and not in the back of the truck (unless he had an accident).
Excellent advice but learning can still be pretty difficult as long as you can not see the wood for the trees. Before i was able to apply patterns i had to count quite a lot....up to a point were 12 became my ceiling of counting *....in my view first you (also) have to learn to count, until you start recognizing/trust/apply patterns.... than you can do without counting (most of the time).
* When i was still in my counting/learning years i found myself a job as a postman. That work included counting the amount of letters addressed to selected part of the street....if there were more than 12 letters i had to be very very careful how to continue counting after the first 12 letters....my boss often wondered why 3 letters (once again) had to be corrected to 15 letters :-).
If i play the pattern enclosed in Ricardo's original post my foot can immediately find/add the underlaying pulse. The pattern starts right on the beginning, but even when it had started halfway i would immediately have found my way to the underlaying pulse because i know that pattern...in the same way you know the steering is in front of the driver and not in the back of the truck (unless he had an accident).
Just to be clear, are we talking about feeling the pulse/compas patterns in guitar phrases of flamenco? Or about feeling the compas pulse in rhythm patterns(palmas for example)? It's the first time I hear about importance of patterns and I haven't grasped the concept yet. Is it about rhythm patterns which are altered by for example palmeros while the compas is still the same, and the point would be to learn how to apply guitar to these rhythmic patterns? Thanks and sorry for being lost on this matter
in the same way you know the steering is in front of the driver and not in the back of the truck (unless he had an accident).
Just to be clear, are we talking about feeling the pulse/compas patterns in guitar phrases of flamenco? Or about feeling the compas pulse in rhythm patterns(palmas for example)?
All actually...in the same way i know the steering of a car is in front of the driver i know that
Obviously melodic patters only help you to a certain extent and so do the rhythmic patterns, but they can help you to keep track every now and then.
Basically all Bulerias falsetas are build up from (and can be felt in) melodic/rhythmic pulses covering 2 or 3 beats.....2 or 3 of those patterns cluster to become a 6 beat chain and 2 "6 beat chains" generally (but not always) pair to become a 12 beat chain.
Most bulerias melodies fallow these 3 basic patterns:
The last "6 beat pulse" which round up the melody is always 6-8-10 (6 and stop on 10) for instance:
12--3--/6--/9-- 12--3--/6 and stop on 10.
12-2-4-/6-8-10 12-2-4-/6 and stop on 10.
This is still pretty clear but the 2 or 3 beat pulses can be extended over much longer periods of time before they round up to 10, up to a point were it is irrelevant if the 6 beat pattern represents 12--3-- or 6--9-- (or 12-2-4- or 6-8-10). In stead Ricardo and i feel just *--*-- or *-*-*- representing both "6 beat" pulses without the necessity to choose which half of the "12 beat system" they represent .....* is the feet tap and/or the melodic pulse (many choose alternative foot taps).
Especially the 3 taps(6 beat) pulse *-*-*- (starting on 12 or on 6) can go on forever (in so called half-compas) until everybody (guitarist/dancer/clapper) rounds it up simultaneously because they recognize a rhythmic or melodic cue that tells them to round things up. If in above *-*-*- pattern the cue points at the first * that's called 6 and everybody will automatically round things up with previously mentioned "and end on 10" pattern, and if the cue points at the last * you are already on 10 and everybody will focus on the next * which represent the new 12.
****************************************************************** So 2 small "3 beat patterns" (*--) link to become a half compas "6 beat patter" (*--*--) that pairs to become a full compas...the last link always ends on 6 which is also the first beat of a final "6-8-10" link (returning to the the standard 12--3--/6-8-10- pulse) The even smaller "2 beat patterns" (*-) also link to become half compas "6 beat" patterns (*-*-*-) that might or might not pair to become a full compas .... they can end either on 6 or 10. ******************************************************************
It's all pretty easy once you know it but i'm afraid you have to count a lot before you know by heart which events (palmas, feet tapping, melodies, rhythmic patterns) belong where and before you can safely rely on feeling in stead of counting...like Ricardo said it goes in small steps, recognising a pattern, another pattern, variations on the patterns and so on until you are able to build a complete car from spare parts.
A friend of mine worked over an hour on a simple tientos/tangos melody and was still pretty clueless....i solved the puzzle in seconds by pointing out which melody pulse corresponded with the parallel compas pulse.
My father often wrestled with students playing modern bulerias variations they learned in spain.....and most of the time he "failed" to understand what they were playing....funny enough all those people mistakingly concluded my father did not understand it because that "ultra modern" flamenco was to obviously to difficult for him....in reality my father could not understand what they were playing because they had no clue them self and totally missed the point of what they were playing with notes ending up all over the place.....my father had to spend weeks to correct the material (waisting valuable time to reconstruct what was originally mend, time that could have spend more wisely studying the much more complicated material my father had ear-played himself in the previous weeks). Only after weeks of correcting (based on my fathers pattern recognition/reconstructing skills) they could finally play the material like it was mend in the first place...but they still claim they learned it in spain... some people will never learn :-)
I've stopped counting a long time ago but before it came to that i lost counting of my countings numerous times :-) And when things become complicated i still analyze things on paper to check the compas logic.
Your welcome...but still it can only be learned it in small steps, there's no short cut. Seeing all the screws that make a car doesn't mean you can do without a manuel/years of experience and knowing how to produce a car doesn't mean you are a good driver as well. The pulses and patterns we talk about are nothing more (or less) then building up a huge reference map based on experience and growing awareness of events on all levels (from a single note to the bigger picture). I.m.o. counting is part of the deal as well (as long as you need it) but what Ricardo pointed out is that it is very important to grasp the underlaying pulse/idea as well....what are the melodic/rhythmic highlights of the melody, what is the underlaying pulse and how does the underlaying pulse relate to the compas (and when you create it's the other way around and you have to make sure the notes/rhythms relate to the underlaying pulse). When i add bulerias to my students repertoire i make sure they experience/understand the various pulses by selecting material that really fits the glove.
I mentioned bulerias pulses like above *-*-*- or *--*-- but like i said there are other options. Paco de Lucia quite often applies this pattern 12**3**/6**/9** were ** are the feet taps...This pulse can fit all types of melodic pulses when your'e used to it. When that pulse is the normal 12-3-6-8-10 pulse the first half 12**,3** kind of fills up the gab between the melodic pulses 12>3 and 3>6. In the second half 6**9** kind of mingle 2 ideas. No matter how you tap it, if you know and understand your pulse the timing of the notes becomes much more easy and a long gap between a note ending on 4 and the next one entering on 7,5 is just 2 feet tap away (entering just in front of the second tap).
alzapua falseta (2th halve) bulerias: pulse *-*-*- (12-2-4/6-8-10) * is melodic pulse and feet tap.
the chord fingers stay on string all the time (the melody is played with first and second finger)
.....*...................*.................*.............. ----0---0-----------0--0---------------------- ----3---3-----------3--3------------------------ ----3---3-----------3--3----------------------- ----0---0----------/0--0------------------------ ------------1~3-----------3~1--/3->->->-- ---------------------------------------------------- ...12 and 1 and /2 and 3 and /4 and to the... (counting) ...12 and to the /2 and to the /4 and to the...(counting in 2) ----* and to the /* and to the /* and to the...(feeling 1 set of 3 pulses)
the falseta continues with
....*.................*.....................*.............. ---0---------------------------------------------- ---3----------------------------------------------- ---3----------------------------------------------- ---0~2~0---------------0----------------------- --------------3---/1~3-------1---/3-->->-->-- ---------------------------------------------------- ---6 and 7 and /8 and 9 and /10 and 11 and -- 6 and to the /8 and to the /10 and to the ---* and to the /* and to the/ * & to the
You repeat the same set of 3 starting on 12
....*.................*.....................*.............. ---0---------------------------------------------- ---3------------------------------------------------ ---3----------------------------------------------- ---0~2~0----------------0----------------------- --------------3---/1~3-------1---/3-->->-->-- ---------------------------------------------------- --12 and 1 and /2 and 3 and /4 and 5 and --12 and to the /2 and to the /4 and to the ---* and to the /* and to the/ * and to the
and round up with a finishing picado heading for 8 and 10
...*..........(and)*.................*................... --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- --->->-->-1--/0--1--3--1---/0---------------- -------------------------------------------------- ...6 and 7 and/8 and 9 and/10 ...6 and to the/8 and to the/10 ...*............and/*................/*
******************************************************************* As you can see the long gab between the note executed on beat 4 and the finishing picado starting on 7,5 is simply timed on the 2th note of the picado that drops on the 2th feet-tap of the next round (beat nr. 8)
in reality one could play an other standard pattern in between: golpe on 5, upstroke index on 6:
../*...............*..................*................../*..........and..*.....................*....... ---0--------------------------------------------0------------------------------------ ---3--------------------------------------------3-------------------------------------- ---3-----------------------------------g-------3-------------------------------------- ---0~2~0-------------0----------------------2------------------------------------ --------------3-/1~3------1--/3-->->-->--/>->-->--1--/0--1---3---1--/0----- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...12...............2.................4.......5......./6............and/8 and to the 10... ....*................*.................*................./*...................*...................*
You can use a similar stroke in the previous round(s) but much lighter in execution, like taking a small breath before executing the main pulse on 12 (that obviously must have your main focus)
This is how pulses and patterns can work. Compare what happens within 1 * and what happens within a set of 3 *, how they chain and vary on the theme...same patterns in small variations.
But melodic patterns can also fool you. In seguiriyas for instance one of the main melody structures involves a chain of similar melodic repeatings but in that specific structure the last chain starts 1 beat earlier and many people forget to compensate that "lost beat" in the last half of the compas. I discussed seguiriyas in detail an other post.
A build in compas feeling based on pulses and acquired flamenco intuition (rather than counting) can even fool the biggest guys...years after i stopped (needing) counting i sat down to ear-play a price winning soleares falseta of Vicente......visualized on paper it suddenly failed 1 beat and it took me weeks to accept that the original falseta was indeed out of compas....Vicente overlooked it for years (but later added 1 extra beat) and i overlooked it for years as well because we both think in partly similar pulses and that 1 particular pulse somehow felt like it was ending on 10 but in reality it was only beat 9.
*************************************************************** Above bulerias falseta used the *-*-*- pattern...this one represents the *--*-- pattern
every top note is played with the index finger, bringing your hand/thump back in the process (ppi...) (actually it is the other way around and while bringing my hand back i accidentally on purpose hit the top string with my index).
The chord fingers stay on string all the time (the melody is played with first and second finger)...recognize the pattern?
Note the last chain is *-*-*- again like explained in my pervious post.
7 and 8 are golpes fallowed by index up-stokes on the second half....(all basic patterns) fallowed by the basic pattern >>>10 played with triplet rasgueado downstrokes on 9 heading for the final upstroke on 10( amii (down,down,down,up heading to 10).
Speaking about patterns, Paco Peña would most probably shift my binding to the previous note to make sure every link has the same bindings on the same place.
He also insisted we didn't trap for the *--*-- pulse but that we should feel and appreciate every beat in the process (restricting to giving an extra melodic accent on the main accents 12,3,6,9, which is a different thing than go with the flow ........at least for a very long time).
As a matter of fact, inside Paco Peña head the pulse is ALWAYS <--3--6-8-10-12> starting at beat 1. Even when falsetas start on beat 12 and have a totally different accentuation he still feels --3--6-8-10-12 inside, playing that other pulse on top of it so Paco's brain and finger often fallow totally different pulses. ******************************************************************
i still own you the first half of above alzapua falseta: the first round goes like this (you might recognize the combined patterns playing golpes at 7 and 8 both fallowed by an index upstroke):
.....*........-..........*........-.........*......-....../*.......-......../*......-......../*................ ----0---0-----------0---0-----------------------0---------0------0----------0-------------- ----3---3-----------3---3-----------------------2---------2------2----------2-------------- ----3---3-----------3---3----------------g------2--x -g--2--/g--2-->->->2--x--g--x---- ----0---0----------/0---0-----------------------2---------2------2----------2-------------- ------------1~3------------3~1--/0->->->--0-----------------------------0-------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...12 and 1 and /2 and 3 and /4 ----5 -.../6.......7...&../8..& 9->->/10...x.11..x.... ...12 and to the /2 and to the /4.....5....../6.......7....../8......>.>.>/10............... ----* and to the /* and to the /* .........../*.................*................/*...............
You repeat this whole set and then continue like above.
I like to add that (especially the first half of) this falseta not restricted to the *-*-*- pulse, in fact if you play accents on every * things can become pretty boring (obviously you can safely give an accent on every first *). Palmas could very well add the *--*-- pulse on top of it and your foot can very well tap the PDL -**-**-**-** pulse.
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