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What kind of story do you think Paco was trying to say through El Panuelo?
I'm learning this rn, would like to hear what you think when you hear this. Maybe it'll inspire me even more
Honestly there is no “story”, he was developing his style a new since his experiments in the guitar trio and his “band” the sextet, from “Solo Quiero Caminar”. This was a new mature style of guitar that he was developing here, after several years. Obviously he dumped the band/electric bass etc., only using traditional palmas and some cajon as needed so it was a “puro” guitar album. He has a quote or two from Montoya on other tracks so he is trying to deliberately bridge the tradition with new concepts. Many old school aficionados did not understand the direction he was going in at all. I think Donn Pohren only enjoyed the alegrias because the foot work of Juan Ramirez reminded him of Sabicas and Carmen Amaya ( ). In all honesty, the Buleria here is already been developed quite a bit on the previous album, such that those falsetas mixed with these new ones seamlessly in live shows (such as when he toured with McLaughlin in 1987). Soon after Compadres with Manolo Sanlucar had more of the same style material, pretty much his career milestone material that as I described, bleeds between the three albums Solo Quiero Caminar, Siroco and Zyrab. The ablum Siroco is important because by this point he was upgrading ALL the song forms, not just bulerias, and it is interesting to note it is the only ablum Paco controls publishing rights for, so it was a conscious effort on his part to establish this milestone.
The Pañuelo is an important gypsy symbol of the virgin daughter on her wedding day (they test her hoo-ha with a Handkerchief for blood, right before marriage). Paco being non-gypsy is stepping into a bit dangerous territory with that title IMO, however, he is obviously beloved by the majority of the gitano community. More amusing to me is that the jazz guys are using that title posthumously to get copyrights for Paco’s family, as per his live improvisations (with Mclaughlin in Montreux and the new San Fran trio album, etc.), but they don’t have a clue what that title refers to.
RE: What kind of story do you think ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
o get copyrights for Paco’s family, as per his live improvisations (with Mclaughlin in Montreux and the new San Fran trio album, etc.)
so if i get the "the new San Fran trio album" the saturday night , Pacos familly will receive some?
Panuelo is very cringe for the young girl , shes in a room full of people (ladies) with the marriage dress and one will go underskirt searching for the "purity" ou "unpurity" , is very stressfull for the girl. After that the panuelo is showed to all , to confirm the purity of the girl, and that also shows that she kept her promess (lol...)
RE: What kind of story do you think ... (in reply to Ricardo)
that handkerchief part lol very cool story, that Donn Pohren guy you say, I remembered I'd reading his book, art of flamenco and one thing really shocked me was there was not a single mention of either Paco or Camaron by him. I'd this thought that maybe Paco and Camaron are not appreciated that much by the pure flamenco community and your comment kinda strengthens that belief
RE: What kind of story do you think ... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
Donn Pohren guy you say, I remembered I'd reading his book, art of flamenco and one thing really shocked me was there was not a single mention of either Paco or Camaron by him. I'd this thought that maybe Paco and Camaron are not appreciated that much by the pure flamenco community
The art of flamenco was first published in 1962, how much are the later editions changed? Camaron and Paco didn't get going until later 60s. Though even when they did many traditional aficionados didn't appreciate them at the time.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What kind of story do you think ... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
that handkerchief part lol very cool story, that Donn Pohren guy you say, I remembered I'd reading his book, art of flamenco and one thing really shocked me was there was not a single mention of either Paco or Camaron by him. I'd this thought that maybe Paco and Camaron are not appreciated that much by the pure flamenco community and your comment kinda strengthens that belief
Wrong brother. I checked that book in the library in College, and they have a photo of Paco in the back. But you won’t recognized him at 12 or 13 years old in short pants accompanying his brother Pepe. At the time they were known as “Los Chiquitos de Algeciras”, and in 1962 Donn writes to look out for these kids. They end up changing their names to “de Lucia” a few years later. Camaron would have been too young to mention, not put on the map until his album with Paco in 1968, 6 years after that book was published.
However, after Donn made friends with paco he wrote the biography about his family. As much as he respected Paco’s playing, he had no understanding about the evolution of the guitar, mostly being blinded by his allegiance to Diego del Gastor, and ONLY that limited style of toque. In his other book about flamenco artists (a way of life?), there was a bit about how the good singers from Jerez refused to work with Moron guitarists in general, except for Diego (almost like a reluctant show of respect by the singers). It would never cross his mind that the style of playing is not necessarily the BEST way to accompany cante (I am talking about chunk a chunk strumming they do for all the palos). Meanwhile the rest of Spain and aficionados put Diego into his proper place in the pantheon of great tocaores.
RE: What kind of story do you think ... (in reply to Ricardo)
ah, I never knew the book was SO old. I went back to it and went back to the pages where he mentions the outstanding guitarists and he does mention him; albeit by paco de algericas that I didn't know before was actually Paco he was talking abt
RE: What kind of story do you think ... (in reply to Ricardo)
Hey Ricardo, you happen to know a LOT do you also happen to know the reason why Camaron did not do more collabs with Moraito ? I've become a HUGE fan of Moraito and was wondering how good of a duo they would have been. Camaron at that time played with both Paco and Tomatito a lot, but why not Moraito ? Did they just not get along well or maybe difference in styles ?
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What kind of story do you think ... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
Hey Ricardo, you happen to know a LOT do you also happen to know the reason why Camaron did not do more collabs with Moraito ? I've become a HUGE fan of Moraito and was wondering how good of a duo they would have been. Camaron at that time played with both Paco and Tomatito a lot, but why not Moraito ? Did they just not get along well or maybe difference in styles ?
First of all:
Second, flamenco is not like other types of music where people like Miles Davis encourage various collaborations. Once a guitarist is familiar with repertoire, the singers don’t want any other guitarist or they get nervous. It becomes very familial. So Paco made the first records with Camaron and they toured in the 70’s. Paco was a payo, which to start with puts the two at a distance from each other somewhat. However, the real problem was that during accompaniment, Paco would do a little riff or picado and generate screams of elation, so a bit of a competition. Paco himself became embarrassed by this and stopped performing with cantaores in public. The meeting of Paco in 1974 with Mairena and Chocolate was awkward due to them not trusting Paco to “behave” like a good tocaor. In the end Mairena really loved Paco’s playing and shared the recordings of it, but Chocolate hated it. That is how it goes brother. So Camaron was much more comfortable with Paco Cepero. And remained with him for years until young tomatito got involved.
I know for a fact that Gerardo Nunez met Camaron and was told that CAMARON wanted to do some recording cuz he liked Gerardo’s playing. Tomatito made sure that did not happen. When you see Camaron with Vicente Amigo, it is a rare event (like the Moraito above), and another palo they invite N. Jero to accompany. So I sense somewhat of a MONOPOLY surrounding Camaron, where despite what he might have wanted to do, it was NOT going to happen because closest to him were over protective. You may or may not know this but when Camaron died his widow went after the Lucia family for $ because Camaraon had obviously squandered all the flat rate paychecks, and she was told by wise guys around her that the Lucias were “stealing” the royalties. In the end this is ridiculous as the royalties they get are pennies on the disc sold as composers of letras and such, none of which Camaron was entitled to, but I think Paco turned over all his earnings to her anyway in good faith. But it was an ugly moment in history for everybody. So the main issue there was over protective family and friends of his circle that did not allow others to get too close to him.
By the way, I am certain Camaron has a guitar there with Moraito to show him the chords for the huapango and other non traditional cantes he was doing, sort of a security blanket since he is dubious Moraito would be able to follow.
RE: What kind of story do you think ... (in reply to Ricardo)
very interesting ricardo. I'm so surprised to see Camaron playing a guitar for the first time and he plays it pretty decently too. Did not have the idea that there was so much politics even in the old ages. As for that wife, what can I say, this is just personal opinion, but the wife gave b*tch vibes when I first saw her lol. Camaron turned to heavy smoking and drugs in the later part of his life, so I figure he must have been going through some mental turmoil in the later stages, one of which could be a bad marriage, like Ian Curtis from Joy Division iyk
No matter how much influenced you get, but going after the one of the best friends of a dead one is a pretty insensitive move, I imagine how bad Paco must have felt.
However this all personal intuition and it could be that they'd a lovely marriage
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). In all honesty, the Buleria here is already been developed quite a bit on the previous album, such that those falsetas mixed with these new ones seamlessly in live shows (such as when he toured with McLaughlin in 1987). Soon after Compadres with Manolo Sanlucar had more of the same style material, pretty much his career milestone material that as I described, bleeds between the three albums Solo Quiero Caminar, Siroco and Zyrab. The ablum Siroco is important because by this point he was upgrading ALL the song forms, not just bulerias, and it is interesting to note it is the only ablum Paco controls publishing rights for, so it was a conscious effort on his part to establish this milestone. 
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