Amplification when playing Flamenco Live

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Barney

Posts: 28
Joined: Aug. 3 2004
From: Cornwall

Amplification when playing Flamenco Live

Hi all

I've been playing gigs for a while now, but often with great reluctance have to compromise my sound. I have a Juan Hernandez Flamenco Guitar and a Takemine Classical. The later can be DI'd into an amp, whereas the Flamenco needs to be Mic'd. I have an AER Mobile 60, which is a lovely amp. However, I find, regardless of Mic (I often use an SM57 but have tried many others including Phantom Power ones) that the amount of volume you can get a Mic'd up Guitar is only about 1/10th of what you can get from the Takemine DI'd. Sadly in larger or noisier venues I have to use the Takemine, even though the DI'd sound is horrible and you're not going to ever hear Golpes!

Has anyone else come across this problem and (apart from hiring a 5K PA), are there any ways around this / any ways of increasing the volume without getting feedback.

PS - Nice Tangos Jim :-)

Mark

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Mark Barnwell

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2004 17:39:10

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Amplification when playing Flame... (in reply to Barney)

Mark --

for restaurant gigs or places where there isnt much space we use Akg 340 mic , is a litlle stickon it is probably the best microphone substitute out there.

The quality is one step below a good mic and 2 steps above pickups.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2004 17:59:00

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

Welcome to the forum Mark! [no message] (in reply to Barney)

no message

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2004 21:20:54

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Amplification when playing Flame... (in reply to Barney)

Mark,
your problem is the amp. Get a Fender Passport....That AER you have is useless, but it's okay I'll take it off your hands for $50 or something. Hey just kidding aren't those little things wonderful? My Samson Expedition Express is about 50 lbs and that is a tough thing to lug around and put on top of stands. I don't think there is a solution. High volume requires pickups, which cannot physically sound as good as a mic. My solution, sadly, was to put a Fishman Matrix into my Vicente Carillo. The sound quality acoustic is minimally changed,but the volume is splendid now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2004 23:47:22

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Amplification when playing Flame... (in reply to Barney)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barney
Hi all
I've been playing gigs for a while now, but often with great reluctance have to compromise my sound. I have a Juan Hernandez Flamenco Guitar and a Takemine Classical. .. Sadly in larger or noisier venues I have to use the Takemine, even though the DI'd sound is horrible and you're not going to ever hear Golpes!

Firstly, playing live always involves a compromise in sound, and you have to learn to live with it. However, things can often be improved drastically.

I have a Ricardo Sanchis Flamenco, and a Takamine electro classical. I only use the Sanchis at gigs where I can play acoustically, but in most gigs I use the Tak. I'd say I get a *very good* sound DI'd, however, I use PAs for gigs, not an acoustic guitar amp.

Beware of acoustic guitar amps - unless they are specifically designed for nylon strung guitar, they are made for, and aimed at, steel strung guitarists. They have a tendency to be very bright, and the speakers are tweaked for that instrument, which is a very different beast. Nylon strung guitars with pickups can sound harsh and plasticky through these these things, whereas full range speakers (eg pa speakers) will give you much better results.

Hearing golpes IS a problem, though. Personally, I think the best solution is a blender pick up that consists of an undersaddle pick-up plus little internal condenser mic. You mix the amount of signal from each using an onboard preamp. This is very versatile, as it means at ower volumes you can mix in more mic output, and as you play with more volume, back off on the mic to avoid feedback, and bring in more of the pick up.

I am considering adding on a little clip on condenser mic to the Tak, and running it through a different channel on my PA, to achieve the same thing.

HTH.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2004 9:30:43

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Amplification when playing Flame... (in reply to Barney)

Mark,

Great to see you´ve found Foro. I´m on holiday at the moment but I´ll catch up with you over the comming weeks.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2004 12:57:36

pat_smith

Posts: 9
Joined: Jul. 24 2004

RE: Amplification when playing Flame... (in reply to Barney)

I just put a B-Band under the soundboard pickup in my cheapo Yamaha flamenco and it sounds pretty natural. Golpe is very audible. You do need to drill for the endpin jack which can be a problem if you have a nice guitar you don't want to drill, but at least there is no drilling through the bridge.
I will also give a vote to the (rather large) Sennheiser MD-441U mic as a really nice natural sounding mic for acoustic guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2004 15:34:59

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Amplification when playing Flame... (in reply to Barney)

I've tried microphones, GHS soundhole mics, LR Baggs IBeam, and Fishman Matrix. None of them are appropriate for group-settings except for the Matrix, the only underbridge transducer. From this you get a volume and clarity that you will not find with the others, and a certain resistance to feedback. But if you play solo, i think the mic or others would work fine. I especially like the matrix because it retains the clarity of picado, which helps lead lines.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2004 18:16:07

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: FF meet up! (in reply to Barney)

Well well - it turns out that the originator of this thread, Mark, lives a few miles away from me (Hi again Mark).

After exchanging emails, we met up and Mark has kindly agreed to stand in for me at my weekly restaurant spot whilst I go on holiday for a few weeks.

Turns out we have been playing some of the same venues over the past few years and have some mutual acquaintances too!

Small world eh? Hurray for FF!

Mark - we must get together for that jam after the summer.

Hope you enjoy playing the Eddystone.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2004 9:12:08

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: FF meet up! (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Another foro flamenco meet up in the real world - I always like to hear that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2004 11:03:28

Guest

RE: Amplification when playing Flame... (in reply to Barney)

Hi Mark
The Taylor steel strung that I had with me at Bath has no pick up fitted yet, so on my last two outings I used an beta SM57 through the club PA.The secret ingredient is a Behringer Shark DSP110 - a digital notch filter - 12 filters in fact- this allows you to raise the volume before feedback to a much greater level.Some slight compromise in sound- but not as much as using a ust p/up.One necessary precaution though -- don,t press the bypass button while still active -- instant earbleed!

By the way thanks for the CD -- sensed that there was more to your playing than we saw at the IGF.

Best wishes

Andy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2004 18:04:30

larone

Posts: 242
Joined: Nov. 19 2004

RE: Amplification when playing Flame... (in reply to Barney)

Hi,
I have the same amp and i find the combo of a clip-on mic (AKG omni lapel mic) to get a nice tone and golpes with a passive pick-up. Blend the two on the amp and with a bit of stuffing about you can get quite loud with a good tone. If it's not loud enough, do the same thing and go out the back of the amp into a PA (if you can get one).
With the lapel mic you may have to glue a tiny bit of foam onto the clip to avoid big bassy golpes. For small venues these clip-on mics are great. Hope this is helpfull.

Larone

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2005 6:54:45