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satvic

Posts: 20
Joined: Jan. 17 2007
From: Seville, Spain

most durable/practical guitar finish? 
howdy again :)

Working on 2 guitars and looking for the most durable finish with best acoustic qualities. These are going to be the beaters, on the road, planes, possibly in a locked car on a sunny day in Texas (I pray not) with significant temperature & humidity fluctuations. Hope I planned the right materials: double (nomex) top and possibly laminate back/sides, cedar neck, geared pegs.

Finish is the one thing I have no clue about as it seems to be a separate subject due to large number of options. Since I'm looking for somewhat defined colors, hence have to ask the pros :)

I'm craving the blanca to be "flaming gypsy red" and negra to be "conde orange".
Although "red" is fairy saturated, really looking for the finish to be as transparent as possible for wood grain visibility (seen a similar finish by Hermanos Sanchis Lopez). As always, the most specific advice is greatly appreciated: type of finish & brand/model? brush-on possible or spray required? what gun/compressor for this particular project? and anything else that may come to mind :)))

Here are the colors I'm aiming for:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2011 0:48:40
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
The toughest finish is polyurethane, but I would NEVER use it myself. It looks and feels like plastic

French polish is very nice but its not what you´re looking for.

I think the best for you would be nitrocellulose. (nitro) But be carefull, its very inflamable. It can be added with a brush. You need a lot of layers and you need to sand inbetween.
Nitro finishes very well. It sands and polishes very easy and it has very good acoustic properties.

Its what was used in factorys before the event of polyurethane plastic coating. Nitro is still being used by a lot of high level professional luthiers.

For info about sparaying, I hope some of the nitro guys will add their wisdom.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2011 8:51:15
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I think the best for you would be nitrocellulose. (nitro) But be carefull, its very inflamable. It can be added with a brush. You need a lot of layers and you need to sand inbetween.
Nitro finishes very well. It sands and polishes very easy and it has very good acoustic properties.


Anders is correct but you simply can't apply color like that with a brush.

Your best bet if you want that kind of color is to take it to someone who sprays lacquer professionally. Achieving color uniformity in intense colors requires a high quality touch up gun, good compressor with a large tank and a fair amount of expertise. If you have the equipment and experience then all that's left is mixing the color and applying test coats on scrap wood until you get what you want. You build it up with clear coats sanding in between then add the color coat then 2-3 more clear coats. Plan on a couple of weeks to apply the finish, ten days for curing (minimum) and a couple of days of polishing. It's nasty work requiring good ventilation and use of a respirator. Of course you can do without the ventilation and respirator if you're willing to give up a few million brain cells.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2011 14:12:41
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
I would respectfully suggest some rethinking of your project as a whole. Nomex double tops? laminated sides? First your intention is to build flamenco guitars not classicals so these two things don't really fit in this project. The temperature inside a locked car is much higher then the temp outside the car which is why dogs have died locked inside cars. No finish is going to protect a guitar from these temperatures, your glue will give out even if the finish doesn't.

911 what is the nature of your call? Yes we have two classical guitars with an
identity crisis trapped inside a locked car, please hurry.

Humour aside it's in your best interest to think this project over again, best of luck with your guitars.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2011 14:37:34
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
So are these orders? Why would you use a handmade guitar as a "beater" leaving it in cars, etc? will you build the whole guitar with Gorilla Glue?
I think an all wood double top might be a better idea.. still crack resistant but might have a decent voice.
Not crazy about that red personally..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2011 16:18:25
 
satvic

Posts: 20
Joined: Jan. 17 2007
From: Seville, Spain

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
Thank you for quick replies !!
These are for me and me alone. I'm not a pro in any way, heck, not even a hobbyist yet :) just always wanted to make flamenco guitars for myself. I feel that buying or ordering a professional guitar for my current lifestyle would end up with a pile of expensive firewood. Hate to say it but carrying durable factory made guitar takes away my motivation to pick it up :( so might as well give a shot.

By "durable" I meant a finish that won't hurt the sound and hopefully can expand/contract with the material, hence my choices. Unfortunately, I travel for months at a time hence the durability requirement.

1. Does anyone know a page with a demo on how to use a nitro finish? From your replies I got an idea it's a process somewhat resembling painting a car: paint + clear coat application, sand, buff. Here are couple of things from LMI: There is one kit but it itcludes KTM (water based poly stuff you guys advised against). If I'm not mistaken this McFadden spray lacquer is what I'm looking for. Looks like most of them come in clear. What do I need to color it?

2. Although I'm excited to do everything myself according to Anders nitro is very time consuming. It may make sense to take them to a master if someone give a rough estimate what it usually costs to finish 1 guitar?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2011 20:00:00
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

What do I need to color it?

2. Although I'm excited to do everything myself according to Anders nitro is very time consuming. It may make sense to take them to a master if someone give a rough estimate what it usually costs to finish 1 guitar?

Satvic,

If you really want to finish the guitar yourself I recommend you forget color. It's a lot easier to apply just clear coats. Here's a quick explanation of how color is applied:

Color is added to the lacquer and sprayed on. Any dye that is soluble in lacquer will work. Normally you buy 3 or 4 colors and mix them to get the shade you want. The color coat is added after enough clear coats have been applied to fill the grain. After the color coat you apply two or three clear coats with no sanding. After curing for around 10 days you wet sand with very fine sandpaper and polish to a mirror finish with rubbing compound. It takes a fair amount of practice to get a feel for sanding and polishing without cutting through the color coat.

You probably would not be happy with the fee for applying finish to your guitar. I usually charge $600-$800 or more for refinishing. If I didn't have to do any stripping, sanding or polishing probably about half that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2011 23:26:23
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
Since these guitars are going to be "beaters" I would use Birchwood Casey Gunstock Tru-Oil. There was some discussion about trying this on acoustic guitars before. I've finished several guitar necks with it and it's easy to apply--you rub it on with your fingers. This is a standard finish used by many guitar companies for electric guitars. It will only cost around $10 USD to finish both guitars and takes little expertise to get a good result.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2011 0:49:43
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
Your probably better off finding a second hand yamaha dirt cheap and investing in a good case with thermal protection. I don't see it worthwhile hand building two guitars, a blanca and a negra for beater purposes.
You can always practice shooting colour on the Yamaha if you desire.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2011 1:41:30
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
Three words: Rubberized Tool Dip

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2011 2:55:47
 
satvic

Posts: 20
Joined: Jan. 17 2007
From: Seville, Spain

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco) 
awesome ! I'm definitely trying the color :)

I still have some Birchwood Tru-Oil left from, definitely going to see what it can do :) My concern is water proof.

Color dyes: I think these add the tint while preserving the transparency, I'll have to experiment with Cherry Red, and a combo of Orange with Vintage amber.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2011 11:58:34
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

awesome ! I'm definitely trying the color :)

I still have some Birchwood Tru-Oil left from, definitely going to see what it can do :) My concern is water proof.

Color dyes: I think these add the tint while preserving the transparency, I'll have to experiment with Cherry Red, and a combo of Orange with Vintage amber.

Those prices seem remarkably high to me. I use leather dye which comes in either spirit or water based formula for substantially less money. I can't give you an exact price since I haven't bought any for years. It is very concentrated.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2011 14:23:56
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
It is pricey and check out the instructions tab to read the warnings, precautions.
I can't imagine having to wear a respirator to do french polishing just because I added some of this dye to it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2011 15:29:35
 
satvic

Posts: 20
Joined: Jan. 17 2007
From: Seville, Spain

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
Thanks for good suggestions! I'll look into leather dies as well.

Well, I call them beaters because I won't have to worry about them so much since they'll cost me much less than the last 2 Yamaha's and Cordobas that got destroyed before I figured out the problem :( I just hope they turn out to be decent intermediate instruments.

1. What kind of mask / filter / glasses? would be considered ideal protection for working with nitro and dyes?

2. I do have a mask (smth like this) and a set of filters certified for automotive painting (not sure the model #) that I also use for inspecting moldy basements etc.. I don't mind upgrading for smth better & universal.

3. How often do you change filters? I've been changing filters every 3-6 month with occasional use (not for painting) just to be safe.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2011 17:07:24
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

2. I do have a mask (smth like this) and a set of filters certified for automotive painting (not sure the model #) that I also use for inspecting moldy basements etc.. I don't mind upgrading for smth better & universal.

3. How often do you change filters? I've been changing filters every 3-6 month with occasional use (not for painting) just to be safe.

I suspect any mask the is designed for auto painting would work fine. My understanding is that you change the filters when you begin to smell the vapors.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2011 18:02:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to satvic) 
If you're not sure about the longevity of your mask and filter cartridges, you can buy a disposable auto painting mask for a reasonable amount.

The kind of filters for and mold and dust will not protect you from paint or lacquer spraying. Those filters are P-100 filters and are also known as HEPA filters. They clean the air for micro dust particles.

You need to get a VOC ( Volatile Organic Compounds) rated filter.
It's very important. Also the VOC filters can wear out before you begin to smell odor though them.

VOC filters are not correct for dust and mold either. P-100 for mold, VOC for spray.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2011 20:47:43
 
satvic

Posts: 20
Joined: Jan. 17 2007
From: Seville, Spain

RE: most durable/practical guitar fi... (in reply to estebanana) 
Exactly info I was looking for. Thanks compadres !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2011 0:24:26
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