Ethical conundrum

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Ethical conundrum

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Ethical conundrum

The Forum has slowed down a bit over the Summer, so here is an amusing poser..

OK...you are driving down a fairly quiet road right out in the country in the early evening, daydreaming about one day being able to afford a really quality, top name Flamenco guitar.
You've been driving a few hours solid and feeling the call of nature, pull up to take a leak behind some trees.
As you return to your car, you see a leather bag a bit down the road on the verge.
It looks like it's been thrown out of a passing car.

You pick it up and take a look inside.

It's stuffed with money!

You take it back to the car and have a closer look.

Just piles and piles of 100's notes (Euros, Dollars, Pounds...depending on your local currency) all bundled together in 10,000's with elastic bands.

All the notes appear used..and there must at least be 200 bundles!

You look all around you...but nobody has passed since you stopped...it's a peaceful, pleasant evening with the birds chirping and the sun going down.

No other information either inside or outside the bag.

You start the car and continue your journey.

So what do you do?

Take it to the Police?

Possible problems if you decide to keep it are...

a) What do you do with it? You can't suddenly deposit 2,000,000 in your Bank account without raising suspicion...
Same problem if you try to open several accounts with different banks.

b) Just spend the cash? Trouble is, you can't really go into a shop and buy a high value item in cash without raising suspicion.

c) What if the money is actually forged, but you are too much of an amateur to tell even when comparing the bills with known real ones?

d) What if the notes are invisibly marked by Police for a "sting" on a gang?
You could end up becoming involved and getting locked up in jail for years.

e) What if it's a money exchange for a drugs cartel and some gang member has noted your licence plate?
You could end up dead.

So what do you do?

Take it home?
Take it to the Police?
Chuck it back out on the road again and drive on?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2010 17:27:00

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

Turn it into the police and fill out a form--if the money goes unclaimed after a given period of time you get to keep it. I would call from the location of the find asap in case it's evidence from a crime. If you keep it and get caught (in the USA) it's considered theft. Tampering with a crime scene can get you into trouble as well. Do the right thing and you might still get a windfall or finder's fee without breaking the law.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2010 18:46:07

akatune

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2010 19:08:57

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

Where do we look for examples of honesty and integrity these days? Who's setting the example? The church's are corrupt, the politicians are corrupt, the police are corrupt!

I'd go with example b) and keep my head down and avoid buying high value items.

Live with modesty.

P.S. Why you asking Ron? What have you found? You're sounding like a man who needs to share a burden.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2010 22:17:38

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

I was walking out a store a few years ago and saw a few bills on the ground just outside the door. Some poor guy probably pulled his car keys out of his pocket and didn’t see that he lost the money. Anyway, I picked it up and returned to the stores customer service desk. I gave the cash to the young girl at the counter in case the guy came back looking for it and she looked at me like I was crazy. My guess is when I left she stuck it in her pocket, but my conscious was clear.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 0:02:26

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

I thought the police in the USA are all criminal themselves, tasering the **** out of normal people who did nothing, beeing corrupt and so on.. From all the docus I got (hollywood movies, youtube..) you better don´t get into contact with the police in the USA.

So,... I guess when you bring the money to the police in the US. At first you get tasered to the ground. Then some other policemen slap the **** out of you, throwing you into jail with some anal-sex addicted criminals. And the next day they maybe ask where you got it from. And if you tell them that you found it, they take you through the whole process again.

I would maybe just leave it and go away if I find something like that.

I had the more or less same situation in the old town this weekend. I was out with two girlfriends and when we were on our way home through the masses of "happy" and drunken people. We saw that some drunken bum dropped his credit card. My friends told this guy that he dropped his card. (I wanted to stop them communicating with this idiot but I was too late) Guess what happened. He picked up the card and ran after my friends. He thought that was an invitation. Good that I was there and able to catch and stop this idiot. Well,..he had some friends too who were ok. They also helped stopping him. But it wasnt easy.

So,.. I would be careful with giving back found things to people.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 9:03:40

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

I found a nice watch in the surf once. I took it to the police station. Three months later they called me and it was mine. NIce! I didn't even get tasered.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 10:13:03

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

When I first arrived in Spain to live, I found 200 Euros on a remote path. I didn't hand into the police as I knew they would pocket it themselves, without much doubt.

Some years later, I got distracted in conversation and walked away from an ATM in Granada leaving 300 Euros sticking out. I was an hour down the road before I remembered. So, Karma surely paid me back.

Next time, I hand it in

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 11:09:35

stratos13

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Escribano)

When i was 13-14 or something, i was going to the sadium to see Panathinaikos play for the league. While getting close there, I found out i had lost 2000 drachmas (the price for the ticket) on my way there. Sad as i was, i decided to go, but try to get in the stadium for free.
On my way i saw on the side of the road 2000 drachmas exactly.
No ethical question ofcourse, i just felt like it was returned to me.

We are talking crazy odds here!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 11:30:25

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to sean65)

quote:

P.S. Why you asking Ron? What have you found?

Well...I just found a bag with 2,000,000 quid in it...so I was just wondering..

If only.

Nah, I was just thinking now that a lot of shops don't accept cheques and local supermarkets up here are changing over to self-checkout systems, things are really moving quickly towards plastic transactions only.
Cash is becoming old.
I already see most folk paying with a card and get the feeling that cash is becoming a hassle, since they need to pay somebody to be on the till and then there are the security considerations etc.

As in my hypothetical example...a large amount of cash can be rather difficult to spend now, unlike the old days.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 12:40:31

johnguitars

Posts: 72
Joined: Jul. 27 2007
From: Michigan,USA

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

I found a ten dollar bill on the floor of the local grocery store and turned it in. They told me that they would notify me if it was claimed in two weeks and it would be mine if no one claimed it. They called for me to come in and get it two weeks later. When I got there it had disappeared. Somebody in the office ripped it off. Does honesty really pay off? Hmmmm................

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 12:54:40

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

As in my hypothetical example...a large amount of cash can be rather difficult to spend now, unlike the old days.

cheers,

Ron

In Iran its no problem.
Give me bag full of stolen money (dollar, euro, yen or whatever) and you will never see me again.

But go with a credit card to some shops there, and they will kick you and your plastic card out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 13:09:32

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

Back in the good old days, when the Peseta was still standard currency, I changed the equivalent of about €100.- in a bank in Pamplona. The friendly clerk, an elderly gentleman (like me now

) handed me a wad of money...
I had the feeling something was wrong, so when I returned to the cafe where my friend was waiting I counted the money, and realized the clerk had miscalculated the exchange-rate by the factor 10. So he'd given me € 1000.-
I pondered this problem for quite a while.
I'd never been in Pamplona before, nobody knew me. I probably wouldn't be returning.
I hadn't shown any ID-documents at the bank.

When I went back to the bank and handed over the money, the clerk nearly had a nervous breakdown, he was so grateful.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 14:54:07

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to edguerin)

Very noble of you Ed, but I fear if you had to do the same thing today, then as soon as you walked back into the Bank, the teller would jump up and shout..

"That's him!!....That's the guy!!..."

Whereupon two Bank Security Guards would rush out and taser you to the ground and sit on you until the Pamplona Police came to handcuff your hands behind your back and drag you off to the cells to face the Magistrate first thing on Monday morning...

"The times they are a-changing...."

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 15:38:07

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi Ron,

You can go with one milion to the casino, get one milion in fiches ( chip) stay there for half a day eat something, play something, and cash it in again ( let them put it on your account). The other milion you can give to me for the tip.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 16:37:16

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

"The times they are a-changing...."

Yeah, but nowadays the bank'd make the mistake in their favour anyway ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2010 16:48:17

akatune

Posts: 188
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 4:29:28

akatune

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 4:31:29

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to akatune)

quote:

quote:

Where do we look for examples of honesty and integrity these days? Who's setting the example? The church's are corrupt, the politicians are corrupt, the police are corrupt!

So, in your first paragraph you justify having no morality.

Maybe he was just complaining.

quote:

...but would be appalled if I stereotyped others.

How do you know that?

Flawed reasoning and atrocious spelling are one thing, but please don't insult forum members, especially with foul language.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 6:47:27

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Doitsujin)

Cops are in general "harder" and a bit more aggressive in US, because many criminals are really dangerous and not like in Germany. Here in comparison its much more safe and peaceful.
But those criminals in US all have shotguns under their bed and they shoot eachother, the cops and you for nothing.
I guess i would act same as an US Cop if i would have to deal with such people daily.

Police in Germany is a joke.
They hunt you for a traffic ticket or paying tax, but if some real dangerous criminals are around, most of them are scared.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 8:55:28

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to akatune)

akatune,

Read Doit's stuff with a pinch of salt.

He's just taking things to extremes for comic effect.

Individual cops here range from being friendly and helpful to being authoritarian and downright nasty depending on their personality, but in general they are OK at a local level.

Where I would agree with Sean is that the hierarchy of the Police Force (as a body) are just as adept at spin and strategic tricks as any major Political party or big Corporation, with things like conducting "Internal Inquiries" to address certain complaints and criticisms and employing delaying techniques and evidence blocking tactics etc. (eg..National Security, cameras "not working" etc)

Usually the outcome of these inquiries where the Police investigate themselves is that they have done nothing wrong. Perhaps a few lessons can be learned here and there, but generally it's all OK, so let's all just move on. Case closed.

I would also agree that Cops in the States have to be able to handle some extremely nutty and violent people who have easy access to weapons.

The right to bear arms is pretty crazy in a modern society, but it is so entrenched in the US that I think it would be virtually impossible to turn it into a gun-free society now.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 9:52:42

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

Hey Ron. This theme came up in a movie called "money for nothing" where John Cusack finds 2 million dollars in a bag by the side of the road and decides to keep it. Most people wouldn't be able to stop spending it suspiciously. To start with a clever person would do nothing and see if the money turned up in any news items. Later you might suddenly find a large unexpected bill on the door that you need to pay quickly so you just spend a little.....then maybe you would want to buy a few new clothes, after all its only a few hundred dollars...then maybe go on holiday, maybe get a better car, then fix up that kitchen...oh and you could buy a new guitar etc. Before long it would be obvious that you had spent a lot of money.

I don't think there is such a thing as actions without consequences. The first law of physics is every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The idea of keeping the money and everything being as before is impossible. You would have to move house and start again somewhere where no-one knows you.

Sleeping soundly at night is worth far more than a bag of cash. Hand in the money and hope to claim it again or get a finders fee.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 10:38:24

akatune

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 10:53:41

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to akatune)

quote:

I think we all watch too many cop movies.

yeah! Serpico is one of my fav!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 11:42:23

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

This theme came up in a movie called "money for nothing"...

There's another one by the director Sam Raimi, called "A Simple Plan" and released five years later. Excellent film!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 12:48:38

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to akatune)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akatune

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

I thought the police in the USA are all criminal themselves, tasering the **** out of normal people who did nothing, beeing corrupt and so on.. From all the docus I got (hollywood movies, youtube..) you better don´t get into contact with the police in the USA.

So,... I guess when you bring the money to the police in the US. At first you get tasered to the ground. Then some other policemen slap the **** out of you, throwing you into jail with some anal-sex addicted criminals. And the next day they maybe ask where you got it from. And if you tell them that you found it, they take you through the whole process again.

I'm am a cop you a**hole. In a decade I've only witnessed one thing even near what you've aledged. That person was drummed-out and prosecuted. You've just stereotyped all cops, but would be appalled if I stereotyped others.

MEGAROFL.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 14:29:10

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ron.M)

I know this guy who years ago worked at a kiosk at the airport. Among other things they sold scratch tickets. He sells one to a guy who scratches it, doesn't realize he's just won 10 k and throws it at my friend....to dispose of it properly since he can't be bothered. I should mention that this was in the early 80's so while 10k isn't chump change now, it was a hell of a lot more money then. Anyways my buddy looks at the ticket, realizes it's a winner and runs through the airport to find the guy. He finally locates him and tells him the good news and hands it over. The guy sticks it in his shirt pocket and walks off.

My friend is a hard luck sorry case kind of guy generally but I asked him what he was thinking. He told me that his boss had had a similar thing happen to her and she returned the ticket and the person split the winnings with her. So he just figured he'd get something and look like a good guy.

He got a sad story and the pleasure of helping out a cheap and rude bastard.

I think Karma is way overrated. I read a quote from a Zen master who stated the Enlightened man is not subject to karma. I think what this means is there is no great equalizer at work here. Everybody has "bad" (and "good") things happen to them and then we try to rationalize it or put it in the context of "deserve". I just don't buy it personally. Getting back to the quote I am sure it was not his point to say that you shouldn't do the right thing. However doing "the right thing" because you fear supernatural reprisal isn't doing the right thing. It's just covering your ass.:)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 14:29:44

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

However doing "the right thing" because you fear supernatural reprisal isn't doing the right thing. It's just covering your ass.:)

LOL!! Funnily enough I do believe in a sort of Karma. But more than that I just want to rest easy at night. I suffer from ridiculous amounts of guilt, and not handing in even a small amount of money would cost me more than it was worth.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 15:10:07

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Ailsa)

There is no price on being able to live with yourself, thats for sure. When I asked my friend what he was thinking, I didn't mean to imply complete disapproval, just curious as to his reasons. My first reaction would be to do the same thing as my friend, but if I sat and thought about it, perhaps not. Certainly I would have considered the guy, his behavior and the way he disposed of what he thought was a losing ticket With that in mind, it's no surprise all he did was pocket the ticket and snub my friend even further.

Still and all if it was his wallet he dropped, then the only thing to do is return it. However it was simply a stroke of luck and he basically gave the ticket back to my friend, even put some emphasis on that by tossing it at him....to dispose of......which could be his pocket as easily as it could be the trash.

I think he should have kept it but I don't think less of him for handing it back.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2010 16:16:04

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Ethical conundrum (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

The first law of physics is every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

I maybe pedantic but I can't let that one go!

What you've quoted is Newton's 3rd Law of Motion.
Its better stated as:
'If body A applies a force on body B, then body B applies an equal and opposite force on body A'

It applies to forces not human actions

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2010 7:08:49