cedar or spruce

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cedar or spruce

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Siroco03

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 6 2010

cedar or spruce

Hi, can anyone tell me if the combination of cedar and sycamore is good for a flamenco guitar or it is better the traditional spruce and cypress with sycamore back and sides because I am thinking in purchase a student model 16 Antonio Lorca guitar or a Francisco Navarro blanca flamenco guitar, I do not know which one is good?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2010 14:01:21

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Hi erog,

many years ago I also decided between a cedar and spruce guitar. A maker told me that a new spruce guitar has to be played much to improve. But the + is,..spruce improves with time. Cedar guitars are already "there" when they are finished but dont improve. Thats what they told me some years ago. I dont know if it is true. My actual guitar is spruce front and I bought it unplayed new. Till now..around 1-2years after, it improved very much. I never owned a cedar guitar, so I cant tell you anything about cedar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2010 14:16:29

Guest

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Hola
Agree with Doitsujin.
recently had the choice between a 68 cedar and a 80 spruce Ramirez.
same price. got to play both. both sounded and played fantastically.
The spruce was mint and the cedar had one small crack in the sounboard.
Cedar is a much 'softer'wood, spruce more 'durable'
the spruce guitar had more 'bark' while the cedar more 'nasal'.
i ended up with the spruce guitar for several reasons. cant say one was better than the other in terms of sound or playability. just different qualities.
my main choice was based on aesthetics, sound in the trebles and the age of the instruments.
The spruce Ramirez is still 'opening up' as it has'nt been played much prior to purchase. This is a joy to behold.!
in your case i would definitely go with the Navarro [fine guitars at a good price}. Have'nt been to impressed with the Lorca's at all.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2010 14:27:22

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

go pick the one you like to play most.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2010 17:50:40

el topo

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 24 2009
From: Mendocino, Ca.

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

I agree with HemeolaMan, play both and buy the one that speaks to you, down the road when you are ready to pay big bucks for a guitar you probably won't have to ask the cedar spruce question again.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2010 20:01:15

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Its like being in a fine French restaurant and having to choose between Bourdeux or Bourgogne wine.

Both are good top woods. They are different, but both can be used for making top class stringed instruments, including flamenco guitars. Its more in the hands than in the wood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2010 23:54:39

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

true. I was in a french-mex-thai fusion restaurant and had to choose between prime rib or duck. Similar difficulty.

Eventually we both ordered one and tried the other's. both were equally yummy, one just tasted good faster and the other took a little while to grow on you....

seriously, skip that, buy an anders.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2010 6:08:27

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Hi Erog,

All the above advice and

this may help

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2010 7:34:30

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Now I remember. When I was at the bienal in seville many years ago... I did a quick buy... I bought an Andres Dominguez guitar (however it is spelled correctly..). It had cedar top. I sold it half a year later. It was acheap model,..so it didnt tell me much about the cedar because it was too cheap. (1000Euro)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2010 8:54:39

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

quote:

Hi Erog,

All the above advice and

this may help

Yes, its ok. I agree. BUT they forgot the most important thing. The weight to stiffness ratio. You can find soundboards with a very narrow grain and with little contrast that´ll produce a deep bassy sound and you can find tops with wide grain and a strong contrast in the grain that´ll produce a strong treble.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2010 11:03:07

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

BUT they forgot the most important thing. The weight to stiffness ratio.

This is the caption right below the first photo:

quote:

Spruce is number one on the list of strength-to-weight ratio for all the woods in the world.

I realize that strength and stiffness are two different terms in the world of engineering, but in the world of woodworking these terms seem to be interchanged when referring to the same idea behind spruce's popularity.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2010 13:46:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Thats not what I meant. They talk in general terms and they use the cliche that tight grained spruce will be more trebly which is not true. The trebliest spruce will be the stiffest compared to weight. And that means high contrast grain and it can be with 2mm distance between the grain.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2010 0:26:21

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

On a well built guitar, cedar has a very fast attack and can "appear" to be louder because of that. Some players I know have described cedar as sounding "explosive" or "electric"... basically I think it has a concentrated energy focused around the transient of the note or sound being produced. Cedar also has a tendency to accentuate buzzes and other string noise.

Spruce is a much more traditional sound. To me it is a more sophisticated tone. I prefer it when recording and playing in situations where there is less background noise. Cedar can cut through in a noisy situation better in my experience. Although when played softly cedar can sound very sweet too. Still, I would say that spruce is the best choice for most guitarists. I am absolutely in love with me newest guitar which is Brazilian Rosewood back/sides with a German Spruce top....

The solea I submitted in the original composition challenge is a cedar top blanca if it helps.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2010 10:19:58

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

I agree that cedar can be very bright and explosive.
This one is like that (Its sold)

This with a tonewood being more or less sofisticated etc. I find to be a totally personal thing depending a lot on playing styles and the builder as well. With respect of my own guitars, the cedar top flamencos (blancas and negras) all react with a very light touch and thus working very well with players playing like that. my spruce toppers need a bit more weight in the right hand and the trebles are more solid and dry. But thats just me. I´m sure other builders have different experiences.

Some find that cedar top blancas look wrong. I think they can be very pretty if you find a piece of cypress which matches the cedar well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2010 10:56:00

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

One thing few people mention or think about regarding spruce/cedar is the difficulty of finding a good piece of topwood. Cedar trees tend to grow straight and can get enormous whereas spruce trees tend to grow in a spiral and large trees are rarely found anymore. It's much easier to find a good piece of cedar topwood than a good piece of spruce. Almost all the spruce tops I buy have runout varying from slight to severe (severe runout makes the top unusable).

If you're buying a factory guitar where little attention is paid to topwood selection you are much more likely to get a good piece of topwood if you select cedar. Better topwood in the long run probably equals a better guitar.

Incidently, cedar guitars have a break in period varying from a few months to several years. They do break in faster than spruce but it still takes some time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2010 14:50:21

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I agree that cedar can be very bright and explosive.
This one is like that (Its sold)

That's a fine looking guitar Anders, I like cedar tops.
Was this the one you desribed a while ago as your-best-untill-now?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2010 23:12:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Kozz, yeah. thats the one. I made another one for a client later on with pegs. That one I liked even more. Its lives close to you. Near Amsterdam.

I dont have the problems John describe about Spruce. Euro spruce grow straighter than Engelmann as far as I have understood. I bought some Engelmann spruce years ago and it was very twisty.
John, the Kaukasian spruce you have, does it have runout? Mine are totally straight with no runout at all. Very promissing spruce tops.
I agree that on cheaper production guitars, under 1500,-€ the cedar ones are very often the best, and the reason is what John describes: you can fairly easy buy a huge stack of cedar tops which are very equall.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2010 0:24:19

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Kozz, yeah. thats the one. I made another one for a client later on with pegs. That one I liked even more. Its lives close to you. Near Amsterdam.

There are quit some Anders' guitars now in the Netherlands I believe. Recently I saw one available on Marktplaats (dutch ebay).
When I was looking for a new guitar a while ago, I had done some photoshopping how that guitar would have liked with pegs.

Sorry for the thread interruption.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2010 6:51:13

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I dont have the problems John describe about Spruce. Euro spruce grow straighter than Engelmann as far as I have understood. I bought some Engelmann spruce years ago and it was very twisty.
John, the Kaukasian spruce you have, does it have runout? Mine are totally straight with no runout at all. Very promissing spruce tops.
I agree that on cheaper production guitars, under 1500,-€ the cedar ones are very often the best, and the reason is what John describes: you can fairly easy buy a huge stack of cedar tops which are very equall.

Every Carpathian spruce top I have has some runout. Several are unusable. The Caucasian spruce seems a little better varying from slight to moderate. I bought some extremely expensive spruce tops from a guy in Switzerland (I forget the name) and every one of them had runout. The only Engelmann I've seen without runout was from trees I selected, cut and hauled out of the woods myself. Every Sitka spruce tree I've examined was twisted.

You can build a good guitar using spruce with some runout but it takes a lot more effort in fine tuning. The last two Filipe V Condes I examined both had pretty substantial runout but I thought they were very good guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2010 10:12:58

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Kozz, you like pegheads??

The one you saw on Marktplatz, was it a blanca or a negra?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2010 13:48:45

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Kozz, you like pegheads??
The one you saw on Marktplatz, was it a blanca or a negra?

yes yes yes yes I love them!

The guitar for sale was a blanca, I believe it was a cedar top, I am not sure.
I couldn't find it anymore so it has been sold quickly I suppose...that's a good thing ain't it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2010 22:51:07

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Do you remember if it was a peghead?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2010 23:30:28

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Can't remember but I thought not.
I've spoken with Gerudino and the guy who had your new guitar is having seriously problems with his hands and not able to play I heard.

By the way, did you receive my email I sent you, regarding a negra?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2010 3:00:23

ConradP

Posts: 109
Joined: Feb. 1 2010

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

OK somebody please tell me what the little hole in the side is for????

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2010 3:21:08

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to ConradP)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=112813&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Its a soundport.
Check above thread, and show us your soundport when you have finished reading the whole thread

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2010 3:27:18

ConradP

Posts: 109
Joined: Feb. 1 2010

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to kozz)

Ah..thank you. What guitar is there in your pic Kozz?

I don't have a sound port.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2010 3:32:34

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to ConradP)

quote:

Ah..thank you. What guitar is there in your pic Kozz?
I don't have a sound port.

Its my 3 week old Francisco Navarro Concert.
I have not the courrage to drill a port in this one myselves since the backs are a lot thinner as my other guitar, a Juan Hernandez.

Here's a pic of it with port. It definitaley is a big improvement for the player itselves.

Follow the other thread and theres also another one where Anders had made an inlay for it.

You can post all your questions there.

Vriendelijke groeten....ik weet niet hoe je dat op zijn zuid Afrikaans moet zeggen.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2010 3:59:04

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

Hi Kozz

Yes, I have received your mail and I have also responded just a few minuts ago.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2010 13:53:41

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to Siroco03)

kozz, i forgot you got a francisco navarro. how is it?
i'm thinking about a student model for the future.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2010 13:58:57

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: cedar or spruce (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

kozz, i forgot you got a francisco navarro. how is it?
i'm thinking about a student model for the future.

I like it very much...it still has to open up, and a search for a good combination of strings has to be done.

If you want a student model look at:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=127577&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

I've choosen for the concerto model because the neck was reinforced an probably also because of advertising issues...yeah, I am sometimes weak for that.

It sounds great the rasgeados are more clear and sepparated, the intonation is a lot lot better....but I have to get used to French Polish...its very delicate...

One thing which I did not realisy that the brdige is now 58 mm and how strange it might sound it really makes a difference and I have to get used to it. Also that the strings are lower...it really needs some adjustment, but thats part of the joy and the learning curve.

I'll upload something soon, I've did a simple solea falsetta, and a GGM Manton 1, slow and a litle bit faster, maybe I shall upload it.

Well i just put it already here:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=128543&appid=&p=1&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#128545

Don´t expect a parilla technique...but who knows in 20 years

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2010 14:27:05