Looking for a fresh start!

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Guitarrero88

Posts: 17
Joined: Jul. 6 2009

Looking for a fresh start!

Hi i am Michiel (you can call me michael or miguel as it is not easy to pronounce for non dutch people) i am from holland and i think i need some advice

Here is my story: I have been playing guitar for a year now, kind a dived into flamenco right from the start.
at the time i began playing i listened to gypsy kings alot so i searched the internet for rumba lessons and found Sal Bonavita's site.
Here i began learning his rumba and different techniques.
in the beginning i often had to push myself but eventualy i fell in love with flamenco guitar.
But then after some months i bought Juan Martin's solos flamencos, i have been playing this book up till now.

Besides practicing i listen and read flamenco alot. as for the reading part i came across much critic about JM lately that's also how i came here.
Now i am looking for a new start but i have no clue anymore.. i tried the new stuff from rezarito (i believe you are familiar with him) his explanation is very nice but the material may be a bit to much for me as my fingers ache after practice with all the stretches and stuff.
I dont know yet if i can afford a teacher this year so that is of the record for now.

Basically what i do now is my daily practice routine but then i just play i bit, i do practice new things here and there but now that i dont want to continue JM i feel kind of stuck because i dont have a real learning pattern and almost no goals to work to, the goals that i have are to vague and way in the future like paco peña's book toques flamencos. (pieces like Herencia latina and El nuevo día i would love to learn in the future but now i dont even dare to look at the music)

Any advice to get back on track?
PS: i am sorry for the long post..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 10:30:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

Hi Michiel and welcome,

To start with, JM is not a BAD guitarist.
He is in fact very good, but not a virtuoso Flamenco guitarist by today's standards.
It's just that a lot of folk feel that he has undue fame and success with only a fairly basic technique, hence a lot of the negative posts.

Paco Peña is quite an "old school" guitarist and plays really good text-book stuff at a very high standard...probably the best in the world today IMO.

You could not do any better than studying his stuff before moving on to the more adventurous modern players if that is what you enjoy more.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 11:44:23

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

Welcome! I know what you mean i dont have a practice regime either.. since 3 years lol. Just make sure you stay inspired. Search for little falsetas you could learn that are not too high. Herrero, Encuentro DVDs, Granados Books,etc... all of them have at least some falsetas i consider to be nice and playable. You dont need to be able full pieces imo. Listen alot to music, practice technique, find people or a teacher... that'll keep you busy for a while!

ps: reading Rons post, i must say that if you dont like Paco Pena's style its not good to study his material. He plays good, but i prefer other players and composers when coming to traditional or 'fundamental' flamenco. In any case it is better to start with the fundament, i.e. traditional flamenco. Whether Juan Martin may be bad guitarist or not, is a rhetorical question.

lol

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 11:53:01

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

Strange... but I did my start many years ago with Sabicas and Juan Martin. Mainly Juan Martin at first because its all playable without having a good technique. And his work is basically copyed traditional stuff. Very good to start with.
I also learned much from Paco Pena.. he has some nice simple stuff. I liked his farruca a lot.
I heard the first time about Paco de Lucia when I was already learning flamenco for 1-2 years. I think I was lucky not to start with Paco because most of the people who started with his material that I know focused mainly on picado..but all the rest of their techinques are underdeveloped.
The most important thing everybody has to to who want to learn playing flamenco guitar well is, its not important to start traditional or modern, it is important that you listen much to flamencoguitar.
It is also false to focus just on modern flamenco.. but is equally bad to focus only on old flamenco. eh.. I hate these people who always wnat to teach "lets do "pure" flamenco... Pure flamenco ... whats that? Flamenco is steadily developing further. Traditional flamenco is not "purer" than actual modern flamenco. Gerardo Nunez is as pure as Nino Ricardo. Just different timepoints. ...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 12:26:59

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

Michiel:
Sounds like you hit a wall!
Flamenco is complex and requieres patience and persevirence to accomplish your goals.
JM is not a bad place to start, maybe you should look for his instructional book "El Arte Flamenco De La Guitarra", then you will enjoy and learn more from "Solo Flamencos".
I also am a student that has been working on this art for a couple and many more years to come, one thing that I have learned from this forum is that flamenco takes time, if you can learn that the walls will become easier to get around.

Good luck, this forum has many accomplish guitarist,teachers, students and most are willing to help.

Buena Suerte!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 12:41:13

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

Hi michael,

i would also add some of quique paredes pieces which are very nice pieces in themselves and are very flamenco. im working through some of them at the moment and the fingerings are not as difficult as i expected but its all about getting a good flamenco sound.

welcome aboard.

best

henry

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 12:57:37

Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

As said before- Juan Martin's "Arte" books are great. He's really made a great
resource for people starting out. Consider doing what I'm doing: Learn all the palos in the 2 books, and once you have memorized everything, slowly replace each palo with one written by someone else. Paco Peña's basic stuff is very
good to move up to after the JM. Try his sevillanas. Also Sal Bonavida has tons of sheet music on his site. You can learn some of those. I even sent him a transcription I did of Pepe Martin's Zambra.

Lastly, never forget how good a resource youtube.com is for old videos for transcribing. Ive learned a Sabicas alegrías, and a Garrotín and Guajira that way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 13:27:19

Guitarrero88

Posts: 17
Joined: Jul. 6 2009

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

Wow! thanks all for the welcome and replies.

Ron, i was planning that for at least the first years of playing, to get a good traditional foundation. so i assume that i was a bit radical to think that i had to put JM's book somewhere behind the bookshelf or something hehe.
I can understand that alot of people dont like the fact that he got so much recognition, he seemed to be a very nice guy to me not someone who is only in for the money, but maybe i am wrong.

Deniz, i think you are right about learning falsetas here and there and maybe combine them i tried this with some solea falsetas of JM, it sounded good to me. i think also finding people (teacher) is very good for your music developement. i come from a musical family, no flamenco though but i hope to bring change hehe.

Doitsujin, yes the people that talk all the time about "pure" "modern" i once read on a forum from a musical university that the teachers there forbid students to listen to vicente amigo and listen more to paco de lucia. because vicente was considered to be bad for the traditional education. i could understand that (though i like vicente's music very much) but elsewhere they said paco de lucia wasn't so pure either because he was the one who braught the jazz feeling into flamenco.
Or the one from the forum is just telling crap or the teachers there shouldnt have compared the 2 guitarist and picked others. how i see it is that eventually i may be able to pruduce somewhat of an own sound but for now i want to build a solid foundation.

RTC, I always understood that it an instrument takes alot of time but i think i forgot that a little because with JM's solos i made many progress in short time but now it is slowing down, the pieces are getting harder and longer and i just need to get into the fact that i will be studying a piece maybe for weeks before i can do it properly.
This forum has indeed so much to learn and you guys seem very nice, i am glad that i found it!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 13:37:06

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

Wrong! It is all about the money!!! You can take that to the bank!

JM is a very good place to start, and he has some more advanced solo stuff. As time goes by you will know when it is time to move past JM's material.

Welcome and good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 17:49:17

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

Wrong! It is all about the money!!! You can take that to the bank!

But what about the women? I'm sure someone said something about women. If there aren't any, I quit.

_____________________________

Callidus et iracundus.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 17:54:32

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

Believe it or not Michiel, you're right on track, asking around, and making such good use of your resources, and really all that you have to do is let it grow, and keep it up and you will do fine. That's the thing, your music grows with you and it gets better and better, and as you develop your ear to really hear the flamenco it will get a whole lot easier and maybe you won't feel the way that you do with complicated pieces, and you will then just dive into them and really enjoy yourself with it. Great to have you here! Maybe someday you can answer the same question of someone new and know exactly what to say from your own experiance.......
Gary

_____________________________

The Life Everlasting/Oswald Utopia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2009 18:53:58

Guitarrero88

Posts: 17
Joined: Jul. 6 2009

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

that's what i had to hear Gary thanks! i mean i did not want that to hear but after reading your post i realized that i was totaly unsure about whether i had to continue what i was doing or make changes probably because i dont have a teacher (yet) to guide me trough the fases of the guitar from crawling to walking to running hehe.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2009 10:10:43

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

I have found the absolute best tutorial is Gerhard Graf-Martinez's 2 Book Series. Everything is well-laid out, he plays most of the tracks at a fast and slow tempo, the notation/tab is very easy to read in a good font, and he covers both traditional and modern stylings.

_____________________________

~Patrick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2009 18:41:23

Guitarrero88

Posts: 17
Joined: Jul. 6 2009

RE: Looking for a fresh start! (in reply to Guitarrero88)

so when i want to spend money on a method i must buy gerhard graf martinez method u say? i must say i have considered it but i wasnt really sure yet because i have not seen or read much about it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2009 5:59:43