Closing struts

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Closing struts

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krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

Closing struts

Can anyone explain the advantage of using closing struts/braces on a standard Torres style 7 strut fan soundboard?

I can see how they might stiffen the lower bout around the end block and so prevent cracking in that area, but acoustically what effect do they have?
My intuition tells me they would have a negative effect but intuition isn't reliable.

What would happen to a good flamenco guitar with a 7 strut fan if closing braces were added? Would the sound get brighter or louder or what?

Would there be any significant change in the sound? I'm tempted to try it on a guitar I finished recently just to see what happens- would I be wasting my time?

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Kevin Richards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 7:32:42

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Closing struts (in reply to krichards)

this is a question i have too.

I think maybe we should just try it lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2009 11:36:20

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Closing struts (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

I think maybe we should just try it

Wel I was going to do just that on my latest guitar. But, while I've been waiting for some extra long clamps from stewmac I've sold the guitar.

So if you try it let us know.

Its surprising that there's been no one answering the question: what effect do closing braces have on the acoustics?

Maybe nobody knows?

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Kevin Richards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2009 23:33:27

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Closing struts (in reply to krichards)

Heres a little go at an explanation

Ive never tried closing struts on a flamenco before but, i have on a classical. From what i could tell, depending on the anle and height of the closing struts, adds latitudinal strength to the sound board. I have heard that reducing the vibrational areas of the sound board help bring the trebles out and raise the sustain. also i have heard the bottom braces add a cirtain amount of control to the soundboard giving an eveness to the sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2009 0:06:03

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Closing struts (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

have heard the bottom braces add a cirtain amount of control to the soundboard giving an eveness to the sound

Thats interesting because that was exactly what I hoped to achieve by adding them

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2009 2:22:04

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Closing struts (in reply to krichards)

quote:

ORIGINAL: krichards

Can anyone explain the advantage of using closing struts/braces on a standard Torres style 7 strut fan soundboard?

I suspect the reason you have received no concrete replies is that there is no concrete answer to your question. In other words there are so many variables to top design that it's impossible to put your finger on one aspect (like closing braces) and say what it does. We've built over about 400 guitars now and have decided that the best route is to throw out everything that is unnecessary. That includes closing braces, bridge patch, etc. and we've limited bracing to 5 simple straight (parallel with the top grain) fan braces. Guess what, our current guitars are the best we've ever built.

Over the years we've tried every bracing variable you can imagine and finally decided that if one limits the variables to top thickness and taper and size of braces there's a lot less to think about and you can get on with building some good instruments.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2009 7:52:13

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Closing struts (in reply to krichards)

i do like the idea of keeping it simple, and i do to most extent. my struts are quite verticle but i do like the control of cross the grain bars.

As usual this will come down to opinion and preference. there will always be someone that will prefer another guitar. so i say build what you like, and hope that every likes what you like!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2009 12:58:51

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Closing struts (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

and we've limited bracing to 5 simple straight (parallel with the top grain) fan braces

Really John? Literally parallel to the top grain, and not in a fan arrangement? So there is nothing to limit splitting other than the bridge itself? That's really interesting.

But what you say agrees with Steven Walter -- he keeps his classical soundboards super thin and with only 5 simple braces (but in a true fan arrangement). They are real cannons, too. The backs are heavy, like Smallman's (or Reyes', I understand). And Walter's neck angle is pretty radical, too. But I think most of the amazing projection comes from the thin top and minimal bracing. I have a friend who paid $14k for one. He's still paying for it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2009 18:46:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Closing struts (in reply to krichards)

quote:

I suspect the reason you have received no concrete replies is that there is no concrete answer to your question.

Exactly. There are no easy answers on how to brace a guitar (exept the "build my Reyes model" attitude)

Its not so that if you use closing struts you get this kind of sound, etc. Its all about balance. And each builder has his/her way of reaching their goal. For John it works with a totally stripped off system. Its been done before with succes. For other builders its not their way of doing things. Thats why they work another system. I work 7 braces, small closing struts and a very thin bridge strip. (not a bridge path) This I can make symetrical or asymetrical.

Just to show how impossible bracing questions are:
What effetct does the tapering of the braces in the lower bout have 20mm, 25mm 30mm 35mm 40mm and this in combination with no closing struts, closing struts which are 14cm, 15cm, 16cm, 17cm etc.

If you were to answer this you´d have to build MANY guitars using wood which had to be totally identical. And remember that each square centimeter is different from each other.

So the final goal is balance. Being 5, 6 or seven braces. Symetrical, asymetrical, Reyes, Barebero, Conde etc.

Nice building
Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2009 0:57:16

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Closing struts (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

So there is nothing to limit splitting other than the bridge itself?

Nothing except very well cured topwood and humidity controlled assembly area. Any guitar top can split if exposed to harsh conditions regardless of top bracing.

I never said the top was extremely thin like the Walter guitar you mentioned. I personally don't like the sound of thin top guitars although you're correct that it's one way of producing a lot of volume.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2009 6:15:10

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Closing struts (in reply to jshelton5040)

Thanks John (and Anders) the voices of experience.
There's no substitute for it

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Kevin Richards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2009 23:46:02