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Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar?
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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 RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers ... (in reply to RTC)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RTC
If competent flamenco luthiers are given the same top of the line materials would the finished guitars sound about the same? Is it all about the materials or all about the builder or litle of both?
Even though there are mundane things guitar makers go through every day, I think there is a desire for most of us to try and make a better guitar each time we build. For this reason alone, we must alter our designs, and perhaps our techniques, ever so slightly from one guitar to the next.
If we are to grow in this art, then we must experiment. If we hold to the same procedure on every guitar built, then we fail to grow.
However, it is important to understand that when it is a good representation of our talents, then we must be careful not to reverse the trend by forgetting what made it right in the first place.
I have found that when a design is good, then it is due to my own techniques in building this design that will show me if I'm in the right place. There is no reason to fault the design if an original maker's guitar expresses good value.
My own work has proved to me that there is a way to improve a design by fine tuning once the overview is connected with its basic value. But once the tuning process has reached it total value, then there is reason to change a design if we choose to keep experimenting with the obvious.
It's an never ending process of exploration and discovery.
I chose to add this bit of information due to the potential of all builders who are striving to make a better guitar rather than just seeing if we can make guitars sound the same.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jun. 6 2009 6:55:39
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers ... (in reply to RTC)
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quote:
Let's face it, a guitar is a resonating box. The dimensions are fixed thereabouts. The only major changes imho to be made are top thickness, bracing pattern and minor changes to cavity volume, assuming equal materials.
That's actually already enough to make a significant difference, but there is more to be done differently.
Doming of the soundboard, back thinkness, neck setup, bridge height, the linings or lining blocks, the glue, the shape of the bars and braces etc....
I'm still absolutely sure the guitars would sound different even when we assume all these things are done equaly. O.k probably they would come close to each other, but there would still be a difference.
Sometimes the differencies are easy to regognize and sometimes not. Small changes in the construction process might make up the difference between a good and a extraordinary instrument.
Given, that both luthiers are experienced i would assume that both instruments would be good sounding but i'm quite sure i would prefere one over the other.
Each luthier has it's own imagination of the "target sound" so the sound they are after is not the same for all. The goal of most luthiers is not to copy an existing instrument or luthier but to set himself apart by creating an instrument with a personal sound character. That is the reason why so many luthiers are exisiting besides the big names.
Regards
Armando
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Date Jun. 7 2009 21:03:15
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers ... (in reply to Armando)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Armando
quote:
Let's face it, a guitar is a resonating box. The dimensions are fixed thereabouts. The only major changes imho to be made are top thickness, bracing pattern and minor changes to cavity volume, assuming equal materials.
That's actually already enough to make a significant difference, but there is more to be done differently.
Doming of the soundboard, back thinkness, neck setup, bridge height, the linings or lining blocks, the glue, the shape of the bars and braces etc....
I'm still absolutely sure the guitars would sound different even when we assume all these things are done equaly. O.k probably they would come close to each other, but there would still be a difference.
Sometimes the differencies are easy to regognize and sometimes not. Small changes in the construction process might make up the difference between a good and a extraordinary instrument.
Given, that both luthiers are experienced i would assume that both instruments would be good sounding but i'm quite sure i would prefere one over the other.
Each luthier has it's own imagination of the "target sound" so the sound they are after is not the same for all. The goal of most luthiers is not to copy an existing instrument or luthier but to set himself apart by creating an instrument with a personal sound character. That is the reason why so many luthiers are exisiting besides the big names.
Regards
Armando
This is correct and there is no way to make two identical instruments; even with the same maker. The idea is too bring everything in the top to a harmonious conclusion. Voice, balance, volume, and have it characteristically sensual to the ear. This is not an easy feat. It requires a dedicated and skillful hand to accomplish.
If it were a matter of teaching this process so that every guitar would have the same tone, then it would be known more as a science, rather than an ART. Since intuition plays a major role in voicing instruments, it stands to reason that the great accomplishment in this area would be to gather enough skills to make each guitar speak with its own voice in a refined manner.
I'm just finishing up a classical guitar I've been working on for 12 years, as I had extra time to spend with it, and it is marvelous. It is truly inspirational and everything in it works for the whole playability and sound.
My wife and I both cried when I made my last adjustment yesterday. I thought I was throuh making the fine-tuning adjustments last month but I tried one more time and it came out just right. I don't think I will ever build another one just like this guitar.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jun. 8 2009 5:15:24
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cathulu
Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan
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RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers ... (in reply to Armando)
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Luthiery is a science in part, the basic principles of physics are there and there are technical papers on it. The construction of guitars is a craft, although some parts may border into art. Plenty of discussion already on that.
Ask yourself how much sound difference there is between a classical and a flamenco guitar. Then ask yourself how much difference there is between a tweeter and a bass speaker. Which sample pair, between the speakers or guitars, do you think sounds more different? Finally, consider the difference between a flamenco guitar by two competent luthiers built from the exact same materials. They will have a similar action and set-up by definition.
Now I said almost the same sound, not the same. There will be nuances and minor differences. But to the unemotional ear - say two such flamenco guitars played by various different players, do you think you can sift the difference in sound by what the player's style and fingernails introduced and what the guitar was responsible for without any visual cue?
The problem is guitars can invoke an emotion, in the luthier or the owner, and emotion can really colour the way you think about or hear something. The right setting can turn a really bad movie into a fun and enjoyable experience. So to sift the hard reality from emotion can be difficult.
Having said all that, when my luthier built flamenco guitar arrives, it better sound like nothing I ever heard before! I have an emotional and monetary investment in that sucker!
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Date Jun. 8 2009 19:47:22
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