Learning by listening

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bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

Learning by listening

Hm...

Once in the life of a guitarist most probably comes the point where he listens to a piece of music and is entirely fascinated by it at once. He rehears it again and again and every time he listens to it it gets more exciting, giving him shivers all over, until he finally makes a point and says to himself:

Learn that!

He starts and just in the moment of grabbing his instrument he notices:

No notes at all!

Of course he either will have to learn it by hearing it or has to drop the whole passion he developed for the idea of learning the piece.

Now, as far as I am, I've learned Tomatito's "La Andonda" and Pepe Habichuela's "Amanecer" that way. A few Rondeña falsetas by Paco and these Bulería por Rondeña falsetas by Manolo I uploaded as well. An Alegría by Pepe and his Fandango "El Dron" I learned just from watching his videos without any notes.
Learning a complete title of them took me about 2 weeks.

But there is a certain point where learning like this gets too difficult.
I'm not trying this at the moment, but learning fast stuff like...don't know..."El gallo azul"(listening to it now) Is just a step too far for me.

Of course experience does it all, but are there certain methods and tricks to improve one's skills and effectivity at that?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2009 11:05:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

Hi Bursche,

Try slowing it down first!

Doing things from sound only and no video?

These days there are computer programmes like "Amazing Slow Downer" etc.
that can help you hear things in more detail.
The pitch discrimination tends to suffer the more you slow it down and it's also easy to get "fooled" by the rhythm of the phrase at full speed when you study it this way.

So always confirm it with the full speed version.

Try to listen out for "open" strings sounding...that will give you an idea of the position of the left hand.
Also things like pull-offs and chord changes etc that would be impossible in that particular chord position.

Two weeks!

You are a genius!!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2009 11:29:50

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

try this program here

you can slow anything down by however much you want. but anything beyond 50% is too distorted for me. you can also loop whatever passage that you want.

i think we're very privileged to have the internet and all the tools, tabs, etc that come with it. imagine what people in the past had to do when they want to learn a recorded piece! they HAD to learn it by ear.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2009 12:16:29

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to at_leo_87)

Actually I can slow down everything with WMP, but trying to develop a sense for open strings being played is a good idea, Ron. I'll concentrate on that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2009 12:26:41

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

It doesn't sound like you are doing anything wrong. Sometimes you have to listen to a passage 50 times to hear what is going on. Transcribing is tedious and you need to be persistant to listen again and again and again...all day if necessary until you get it.I use the slow function on windows media player and I have a CD player that can loop 2 or 3 notes at a time.

Emilio Maya told me that when he was learning from Paco de lucia LPs (thats vinyl for anyone here old enough to remember those

) he kept lifting the needle and putting it back until the record wore out and became unplayable

It takes me a half day to work out a falseta properly. The Nuñez buleria "Siempre es tarde" took me 2 full weeks to transcribe so it sounds like you doing as well as anyone else.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 5:25:33

MarcChrys

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

I pretty much learn to play all my 'cover versions' either by ear or by YouTube - can't be doing with the static laborious process of reading tabs! It's amazing how many people post comments on YouTube like 'have you got the tab for this?', when it's pretty obviously something as simple an an E A B7 chord sequence :(

Reminds me of my old days as a bass player in a pop group when I used to speed the 45rpm singles up to 78rpm to hear the melody of the bass line; then, later, as a lead guitarist, I used to slow albums down from 33rpm to 16rpm to work out the guitar solo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 7:30:11

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

or you could take the path to self improvement and do something like, i don't know, actually develop your ear by using your brain to slow down a phrase.

the pitch never changes. the rhythm wont get more difficult, and you can take time to listen to it anywhere you want all day.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 7:43:55

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to MarcChrys)

One of the (many) reasons why I felt I could relate to Flamenco, was that it forgives the need of reading-writing music, and emphasizes a more proletarian approach to learning by “emulation”. As a kid my parents could not afford to provide proper music lessons, nor would they have taken the “risk” of turning a child into a “musician”. I learned whatever I did on the street, regrettably sort of behind my parents’ back (I am sure many in my older generation had similar experiences).

And now that I am older, I want music to stay within the tightly marked boundaries of a hobby. I cannot afford the luxury of dedication any serious music program could require. So by ear and by eyes, listening and watching (God bless youtube, really), does it handsomely for me, to add fresh ideas and new challenges every time I wish to seek them out.

I am not suggesting that one should not learn proper music theory, in fact it would infinitely help. When the scholarly pros discuss “theory” here, I do suffer the pains of inadequacy. I have a most remedial appreciation of traditional written notation I’d learnt studying cello (my music revenge after passing the NY Bar), but I am happily back to “can you do that one more time, and may be slow it down a notch, amigo?”.

If there is a trick it must be training your senses to appreciate “what’s going on”, the more you try to download in your mind what you hear and convert sound into mechanical images, the easier it becomes. After a couple of years of doing what you are (and many here) doing, I sort of envision the guitarist’s hands, as I listen to a Falseta.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 8:15:24

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

I can just speak for myself, but there sooooo many nice pieces of flamenco music from different guitarists from which i have complete videos, complete tabs, etc. and which i could learn (which would probably take the rest of my life),,,, so that i dont see the point to invest hours in decrypting a piece from which i dont have anything except the audio.
On the other hand, yes, sometimes i hear something that i like to learn and from which i dont have anything. But i prefer to wait until someone else (maybe a professional transcriber) makes a transcription

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 8:40:53

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

Bursche, about Ron's idea of listening for open strings, I'll add that the sixth string is particularly important in this sense. When you start to transcribe something, it's a good idea to go over the recording at least once, listening for the lowest note and determining if it's open or fretted. That's one of the biggest and easiest clues to determining tuning and capo position. For example, many years ago, I worked out Sabicas' Los Puertos in E in standard tuning but had to start over when I realized that there's a D bass in there!

(It's standard tuning with the sixth tuned down to D, in case anyone's interested.)

Arash, I highly recommend doing your own transcribing. Steve Vai called it a "miracle drug" or something like that in an interview. It really does sharpen your skills, and the benefits aren't just limited to your head, either, because it provides a very good warm-up if you use the guitar to work things out. When I spend the first part of a day transcribing, I notice a big difference when I play that evening. Obviously, it improves your reading skills, too, if you figure out how to write things yourself. Learning the rules of theory behind writing can be a bit of a chore, but you can always use tab and add the time values in stems and beams (time values really should be learned, anyway).

HemeolaMan, what you mentioned sounds interesting. Would you mind explaining a little? Or maybe you could point me toward some references to learn more about that. Thanks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 10:48:09

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

Arash, I highly recommend doing your own transcribing. Steve Vai called it a "miracle drug" or something like that in an interview. It really does sharpen your skills, and the benefits aren't just limited to your head, either, because it provides a very good warm-up if you use the guitar to work things out. When I spend the first part of a day transcribing, I notice a big difference when I play that evening. Obviously, it improves your reading skills, too, if you figure out how to write things yourself. Learning the rules of theory behind writing can be a bit of a chore, but you can always use tab and add the time values in stems and beams (time values really should be learned, anyway).

Words of pure wisdom, Norman. Ricardo recently recommanded i should do exactly that (while i was looking for someone to help transcribe my own compositions). I bought "sybilius" -the software- and had some fun palying with it, but must confess i did not get the immediate -after two weeks of struggling- satisfaction i was hoping for.

However, I think one has to work with a software of some sort, how else do you propose one could check the accuracy of what he writes, if simply on paper?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 11:04:28

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

However, I think one has to work with a software of some sort, how else do you propose one could check the accuracy of what he writes, if simply on paper?

Hi GJ, I rely on software to loop and slow down the music. It also distorts the music as others have said (the slower the music the greater the distorsion), but the better programs offer a variety of methods for slowing down different kinds of sounds (for percussion, for voices, etc.) without changing the pitch. So if you fiddle around with that, then double-check at several different speeds, then triple-check against normal speed, and then go back and check again months later...it'll be less of a nagging doubt.

But seriously, you do have to go back and check repeatedly from different "perspectives," although it's also true that, after you become familiar with the software and its effects on audio, you know when it's right and when you're "fooling yourself."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 11:23:38

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

However, I think one has to work with a software of some sort, how else do you propose one could check the accuracy of what he writes, if simply on paper?

i've used sibelius in the same way. i've also used it to check how something should sound like if i don't have an audio file of that something as a reference. it's a great learning tool though punching in all those notes can become pretty tedious.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 11:26:48

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to NormanKliman)

Thank you Norman. What software are you using?

At_Leo, i agree on how tedious writing notes become. I really never figured out how to wirte it out in plain tabs... next project (any advice or insight on that?)

Of course i still dream of a program which allows you to play in (with the guitar, not a keyboard) and spells it out for you... did technology grant this guitarist's wish, yet?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 11:34:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

The best method of learning by ear, by far....keep time with the hands (good palmas, or just the beat is ok) and/or foot tap, and sing along, at tempo, the notes and pitches EXACTLY. Each time you are "off" pitch or rhythm, rewind....keep doing it till you got the whole falset, and I mean dead perfect.

I will learn falsetas this way even stuck in traffic or on long road trips....no guitar....when you get home, it is pretty easy to find the notes, once you can sing it perfect and in time....

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 12:23:09

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Thank you Norman. What software are you using?

A very old version of Sound Forge. It does a lot more than just slowing down music, but it might be worth it (looks like the current version is going for US$300), for the audio quality. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it, but then again, the program that Ron mentioned costs only €41. Sound Forge is very good for full-out editing, and it looks like the latest version handles video, too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 12:37:02

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

I like transcribing, even though I'm very slow at it. To me it serves many purposes. It's ear training but less tedious than the ear trainer programs that go: 'Beeep, Bluuup - which interval?'.

Because of listening so closely to a short passage, again and again, it also feels like you're getting under the skin of the falseta or whatever it is that you're learning.

Also, when piecing together the time values (choosing which stems to join or break etc) you learn how to sort rhythmic patterns in simple, readable chunks. This has the side effect of giving you a feeling for how different pieces can be fitted together in lego fashion. So when simply strumming compas in an improvised manner you suddenly get ideas about how to fit in some new rhythmic variation or some phrase that you've learned in another context.

I'm sick of Finale.. it can do everything I need just fine, but it's stuck in some kind of arcane user interface from a time when the use of a mouse pointer was enough to be considered user friendly and no one thought about time efficiency. I was hoping Sibelius would be easy to use but it sounds like it's a bit messy too..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 13:55:00

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

I really never figured out how to wirte it out in plain tabs... next project (any advice or insight on that?)

you mean write tabs in sibelius? it's an even more painful process than standard notation, at least for me.

you start off by creating a new score and adding "guitar [tabs]"

the rhythm editing is the same except there are no flags to tell you the rhythm value of each note. there might be a way to add this but i haven't figured it out.

when you place a note on a line, you'll find that you can only insert a "0" representing an open string. to change it to a fretted note, you have to click on the note then hold "shift and alt" then punch in the fret number you want. so for example "shift+alt+3" for third fret.

there must be an easier way but that's just how i've been doing it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 14:37:29

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to at_leo_87)

Thanks Norman and At_Leo. I reviewed a few softawares -including sound forge.

Does anyone knows if Pro Tools can score music?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 15:53:18

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

Norman, like ricardo said, the best way to learn is to use your voice.

Hear a phhrase, sing it back. memorize it in terms of where it is in the air, not where it is on the guitar.

Listen to a phrase once, then hear it in your head. you can use your brain to slow it down, its really easy once you try. think about your favorite song, and sing it slow. there. you've done it once. now try it with something new. hear it once, sing it back, slow it down in your head, sing it slowly etc.

The guitar should be the last part of the equation. it is the thing that you use to make the sounds that are in your head. make sure the sounds are in your head before you try to make them on a guitar.

You use the instrument. it does not use you.

Sibelius is a professional engraving software. it can be difficult to use, but no where near as inconvenient as finale! I use sibelius for a ton of things, and I am quite profficient. it takes a while to get used to tho

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 15:57:36

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to HemeolaMan)

Ah, I understand you now. Thanks for the explanation. Yeah, important underlying concept. Not my intention to solicit a response and then argue against it, but I think it ought to be pointed out that the guitar is polyphonic as well as... well, I don't know the right word, but there are often at least two different ways to play the same notes in the same way (as opposed to a piano, for example). Also, fast picados, alzapúas, etc. would be too hard to determine accurately without audio software. Or, for example, when an idea breaks away from a pattern at only one point, in order to end on the right note, the point of divergence usually has more to do with the fretboard than musical coherence (Sabicas).

But it's a very important underlying concept. I usually do that when I first have a crack at something with the software.

Albert Collins once said, "I used to sit in high school, humming with my mouth, and then I’d go home and see if I could play it with my hands." That's some of the best advice I've ever heard!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2009 22:14:06

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 6:18:22

MarcChrys

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to Guest)

I'm no expert (!) but my experience of 'working out' music is that it's a combination of:

a) having the gift of musical kinesiology (e.g. if you hear a tune like 'We Wish You a Merry Xmas', can you instantly play the melody on the guitar? I usually find most tunes I hear I can do this straight off...and sometimes with chord progressions). I'm sure anyone can develop this by practising.

b) familiarity with musical patterns - as someone from more of a rock/jazz background, I can recognize chord progressions in most popular pieces - e.g. Blues, rock n roll, rock. Similarly, it seems to me that flamenco (and no doubt someone will shoot me down in flames!) has quite a few stock patterns and variations on a theme - e.g. Bulerias. So once you have some idea of the style of a particular piece, all (well, *most*) else is embellishment :)

c) Knowledge of the guitar's sonic and spatial boundaries - by this, I mean, even virtuoso guitarists are 'limited' by the possibilities of the guitar's composition/construction/tuning, so often they choose the most elegant/logical way to play a piece.

d) knowing whether the original piece uses a special tuning or a capo.

e) YouTube! :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 6:34:10

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks for all the replies, guys! One night and I've got novels of good advice here=)

quote:

sing along, at tempo, the notes and pitches EXACTLY

Good point, Ricardo.

When I learned these falsetas from Tauromagia I spent days sitting, listening, clapping and making ridiculous niose with my voice (kind of singing).
But even though I really suck badly at singing it brought great improvement.

Now that you mentioned it again I'll maybe go over to figure out things more method-based, because my greatest enemy at "earing" compositions is a lack of concentration. I guess I'll have to be more systematic.

About slowing music down: When you have the opportunity to convert cd's to a lossless audio, distortion should normally be very little, this worked perfect for me so far.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 10:46:11

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to bursche)

what do you guys think of ear training exercises such as interval recognition? would it be of any help towards becoming a better transcriber or is it a waste of time and i should i just work solely on transcribing?

i've been doing interval recognition training for a few days and i'm wondering if my energy would be better spent elsewhere.

great tips so far, btw. can't wait to try them out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 22:48:38

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to at_leo_87)

While all this humming/singing stuff is good, one of the biggest problems I've found is trying to discriminate between certain notes in a very fast picado or alzapua section, where the note duration is really just tens of milliseconds.
When slowed down some passages just sound like a slowed down drum roll, especially on the bass strings.
In that case I tend to use the trial and error method of trying out various combinations and alternating between slow speed and normal speed and trying to target the note in question with my ear.

This is where a knowledge of scale theory etc would come in handy, although some Flamenco tends to be a bit "atonal" in places which doesn't help much.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 1:25:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning by listening (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

While all this humming/singing stuff is good, one of the biggest problems I've found is trying to discriminate between certain notes in a very fast picado or alzapua section, where the note duration is really just tens of milliseconds.
When slowed down some passages just sound like a slowed down drum roll, especially on the bass strings.
In that case I tend to use the trial and error method of trying out various combinations and alternating between slow speed and normal speed and trying to target the note in question with my ear.

This is where a knowledge of scale theory etc would come in handy, although some Flamenco tends to be a bit "atonal" in places which doesn't help much.

cheers,

Ron

most of music, especially when it is "fast" rhythmically, is usually made of patterns....when you learn lots of patterns it is easy to make educated guesses. A long picado can be just as effective if you have the speed and rhythm exact, but perhaps a wrong note here or there....the impact or purpose will sound more or less the same.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 9:54:12