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My name is Jeff; I am a 21 year old college student in the Southern California, and I would like to learn how to play flamenco guitar in a style comparable to Rafael Cortes. I have no guitar experience, no formal music experience (cannot read music), and I do not have money for lessons. I do have a second hand "Yamaha CG172SF Nylon String Flamenco Guitar", and I do expect to work very hard.
After reading the forum and scouring the Internet, I've found these resources to be the most promising from a layman's view for someone without the ability to take lessons from a local teacher:
I am writing to you all today to ask to make sure I haven't missed anything important that you would recommend along with any tips for a beginner with, quite literally, 0 guitar experience. Exercises / training, positioning, tips / tricks, etc., anything you think might be beneficial, I would be extremely grateful. I've been considering putting super glue on the tips of my fret fingers - as my current ambitions seem to surpass my fingertips durability - does anyone have experience with this?
Simultaneously, I'd like to know what the flamenco community's view is on the necessity of learning to read music. I play multiple instruments, all of which I play by ear successfully (debatable, haha). From my extremely limited view, flamenco guitar as a style seems to be focused on big picture themes without much focus on minor details of 'exactly this way' styles. The style seems to lend itself toward playing by ear, but I am not sure if that is a misperception. Either way, I would really like to learn this style and this instrument "correctly, and traditionally" as opposed to my typical style of playing an instrument with whatever works technique.
I was hoping to get a few recommendations on pieces to start with. Right now, I'm thinking of starting with:
-- but please don't take that like I expect to play it overnight. When I start learning a new instrument, I typically try to pick one or two 'ridiculously difficult for a beginner' pieces to strive for and chip away at them... So I'm not looking for absolutely impossible, but something that might be possible with months of work.
Lastly, I was wondering if anyone had a list of flamenco guitar players from whom I could listen to draw inspiration from. I _think_ I am gravitating toward traditional style flamenco, however I haven't been exposed to enough flamenco music to know the differences between one style or another yet. Potentially even live guitarists to go see in the Southern California / West Coast of the U.S areas.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
Very difficult to learn flamenco without a teacher. And the video in question is by a top player-most people could play the rest of their life and not come close to his level. this is not to discourage you but to give you a sense of reality. also, it is not necessary to have that technical level to play good flamenco. In order to guide you, it would be helpful to know what you hope to do-play solo? accompany flamenco signers and dancers? Play some kind of fusion? the answers to those questions should help determine your path. The idea that you can learn an art that will necessarily consume a good part of your life without investing any money is not realistic IMO. What are your plans when you outgrow that guitar? You are going to want a better one. And then later still a better one. Earn some money and take lessons is my best advice, or else you may develop bad habits that will be difficult to break. At some point someone is going to have to show you something no matter if they charge you or not. We have had a debate as to if it is even possible to learn flamenco without a teacher. Some believe it is, and it may be for some. I'm not in that camp. It's going to be hard enough even with good instruction, but it also depends on the level you expect to reach. That particular tune.......better call Saul.
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
Sounds kinda like me 5 years ago. haha
I thought, "I've been playing guitar for 15 years off and on, pretty technical metal stuff, all i need to do is learn right hand I should be able to tackle Paco stuff in a year or two!" Haha It's so obvious and laughable to me now but I was so sure back then. There really is no substitute for a teacher when it comes to this stuff. You don't NEED music theory but you NEED flamenco theory. Most active guitarists playing flamenco in the LA area are, Jose Tanaka, Andres Vadin and Antonio Triana, look them up and check 'em out. Ethan Margolis is really great but pretty busy with Jazz and Paco Arroyo is a monster but not really active.
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
Hi Mark2,
Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate your perspective on what it will take to learn to play the guitar at that level - my understanding of flamenco is definitely too naive at this point to appreciate the skill required to play La Meiga, but I intend to try nonetheless. It's the beginning of a long road, but it doesn't hurt to have an end in mind.
Right now, I will be playing solo 95% of the time, but someday I'm sure I'd love the opportunity to play Flamenco with others. As for outgrowing my guitar, your absolutely right that I would trade-up to a better guitar someday (and I do expect to spend money as needed when it comes to that point), but right now, as an already working college student, I do not have anything more to spend than a little on books or other small resources I can find. So I will have to suffice without it for now. As for bad habits, yes, it is very likely, which is why I'm trying to learn all I can from you all, videos, books, etc.
Regarding the level I'd like to reach - this is not something I am pursuing professionally, this is something I am passionate about personally. Either way, I'll shoot for the highest levels and land where I may.
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
- I don't know what the going rate for guitar lessons are in the US, but if I were you, I would still try to find some way to work it out. Even just one class a month or every two months, depending on what you can afford, so that you can get an expert's view on your technique and what not. You can be upfront with a teacher about what you expect from a class, and if he knows you can only come in every so often, I'm sure a good teacher would be more than happy to just focus on helping you find the right hand positionings, or whatever it is that you think you specifically need. I seem to have been posting this a lot lately: http://www.manuelgranados.net/estudios-descargas/ Free and quality stuff but maybe not all that useful without knowing any basic technique.
I think you can learn just fine by ear. However, I profoundly disagree that this means flamenco is "without much focus on minor details".
If you use the search function of the foro I'm sure you'll find plenty of other interesting stuff, with tips, exercises, etc.
As for super glue on the fretting hand, I've never heard of that before. On the other hand, sure. But on the fretting hand? Not sure I see why anyone would need that, especially on the tips on the finger. I mean on the nails sure. but you're not going to break your finger tips...
Recommended players: Sabicas, Paco de Lucia, Nino Ricardo, Paco Cepero, Vicente Amigo, Moraito, Diego del Morao, Gerardo Nunez, El Viejin, Ramon Montoya, Sabicas again, Manolo Sanlucar, Rafael Riqueni... the list would be endless but that's a start. Oh and...Sabicas again! (what do you mean I'm biased!!)
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
Jeff,
Several comments.
Regarding using super glue on your left-hand fingertips. Forget it. Eventually your left hand (fret hand) fingertips will develop calluses. I recommend using Krazy Glue on your right-hand finger nails to prevent them from shredding when you play, particularly rasgueados.
To reinforce points made by Piwin above, if you eventually decide to get a good teacher, I would say the going rate for a good one in the United States is about $75.00 per hour. Well worth it if you can afford it.
Regarding flamenco guitarists to listen to and emulate, I recommend Sabicas and Paco Cepero. First rate, classic flamenco. Again, Sabicas and Paco Cepero. you can't go wrong.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
Thank you all for the help:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
You don't NEED music theory but you NEED flamenco theory.
Are there any definitive resources for flamenco theory in English? Books, articles, videos -- anything potentially supplemental to a teacher (see below) which I might use to bridge some gaps between the infrequency of teacher instruction?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
There really is no substitute for a teacher when it comes to this stuff.
ORIGINAL: Piwin
I don't know what the going rate for guitar lessons are in the US, but if I were you, I would still try to find some way to work it out. Even just one class a month or every two months, depending on what you can afford, so that you can get an expert's view on your technique and what not. You can be upfront with a teacher about what you expect from a class, and if he knows you can only come in every so often, I'm sure a good teacher would be more than happy to just focus on helping you find the right hand positionings, or whatever it is that you think you specifically need.
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
... if you eventually decide to get a good teacher, I would say the going rate for a good one in the United States is about $75.00 per hour. Well worth it if you can afford it.
Ok, so it sounds like I'm definitely going to need a teacher -- I really like the idea of seeing them once a month or two. First question, in order to get the most out of a lesson, specifically the first lesson, would you all recommend that I spend some time with a few basics before going in to get some basic flamenco familiarity down first -- or best to not form any habits from the beginning? Second question, does anyone have any good referrals for teachers in the greater Los Angeles / Southern California area?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
As for super glue on the fretting hand, I've never heard of that before. On the other hand, sure. But on the fretting hand? Not sure I see why anyone would need that, especially on the tips on the finger.
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Regarding using super glue on your left-hand fingertips. Forget it. Eventually your left hand (fret hand) fingertips will develop calluses.
Ok -- I haven't run into the problem of wearing down my nails yet, but the tips of my left (fret) hand are practically raw and I haven't been able to continue play. Calluses sound like the solution. On that note, does anyone have advice on how long one's nails need to be and how they're maintained (ie, superglue)? I've been running into the problem of my right thumb nail snagging on a string on its corner most point.
As for all of the guitarists recommended, thank you -- I'll get to listening:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
Most active guitarists playing flamenco in the LA area are, Jose Tanaka, Andres Vadin and Antonio Triana, look them up and check 'em out. Ethan Margolis is really great but pretty busy with Jazz and Paco Arroyo is a monster but not really active.
Where would someone find schedules of these guitarists playing? All of their websites and / or media do not seem to be maintained.
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
In the link I sent you, at the very bottom of the page there is a theory book in English.
I would focus on the basic structure of flamenco. Look up, say, Solea (the usual starting point), Alegrias or Bulerias, try to understand the rhythmic structure (the compas. this is by far the most important thing you'll have to learn in flamenco. compas compas compas). And listen to as much of it as possible (take a solea video from the foro, and try to find the strong beats 3-6-8-10-12 and get familiar with it). When you go for your first class, given your situation, I would ask to focus solely on technique. Getting the hand-positions down. You'll find plenty of videos and tabs on the Internet to learn from, but for the technique aspect, you really need some kind of feedback.
Yes, calluses will grow eventually. You may also experience muscular tension with bar chords and the like at first. It takes a while to get used to.
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
In the link I sent you, at the very bottom of the page there is a theory book in English.
I would focus on the basic structure of flamenco. Look up, say, Solea (the usual starting point), Alegrias or Bulerias, try to understand the rhythmic structure (the compas. this is by far the most important thing you'll have to learn in flamenco. compas compas compas). And listen to as much of it as possible (take a solea video from the foro, and try to find the strong beats 3-6-8-10-12 and get familiar with it). When you go for your first class, given your situation, I would ask to focus solely on technique. Getting the hand-positions down. You'll find plenty of videos and tabs on the Internet to learn from, but for the technique aspect, you really need some kind of feedback.
My apologies on not noticing that link originally, and thank you for directing my attention toward it -- printing volume 1 now. For a beginner like myself, would you say that it is important to focus on developing technique in parallel with comprehension of the actual theory of it to start? Or do you think it is more important to focus on getting basic technique down first?
Thank you for the link regarding nail care -- seems to be a common problem.
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
I don't know if there's a better way of doing it. In parallel sounds like the more natural way of doing it. You don't necessarily have to know too much theory. But you do absolutely have to understand the concept of compas and be comfortable with it.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
Even a few lessons are better than pulling it full on your own. Learn basics like chording and simple strum, then put the money you would spend on those method books into 3-4 lessons, unless you already have the books. Both of the video options you suggest are not a good place to start at all.
If no lessons, I would recommend that you get the Juan Martin "El Arte" book along with the Martinez offerings and work back and forth through them to get a more well-rounded experience.
look at these channel also - though much is presented with the assumption that you are at least at an advanced beginer level:
https://www.youtube.com/user/terfle1106/videos <- in french and some sparse english, some reasonable "beginer" technique and compas descriptions. I briefly looks at some of the stuff he had labeled as "beginners" and its fairly advanced.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
quote:
Either way, I would really like to learn this style and this instrument "correctly, and traditionally" as opposed to my typical style of playing an instrument with whatever works technique.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JDH
-- but please don't take that like I expect to play it overnight. When I start learning a new instrument, I typically try to pick one or two 'ridiculously difficult for a beginner' pieces to strive for and chip away at them... So I'm not looking for absolutely impossible, but something that might be possible with months of work.
Lastly, I was wondering if anyone had a list of flamenco guitar players from whom I could listen to draw inspiration from. I _think_ I am gravitating toward traditional style flamenco, however I haven't been exposed to enough flamenco music to know the differences between one style or another yet. Potentially even live guitarists to go see in the Southern California / West Coast of the U.S areas.
Thank you very much for your time, Jeff
Just a few quick things...the traditional way to learn flamenco is to sit across from a teacher and pick it up by watching and listening. Although this is 'ridiculously difficult for a beginner' I suppose it can't hurt you to look this over:
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
If you can't get proper one on one lessons, you will need to be able to understand rhythmic notation at least, and tablature. It's not too hard if you have an ear and a metronome. (Not a fancy flamenco one, just one that clicks). I would avoid most resources and go right for the maestro sources which are the Encuentro series of videos and books. You have to be a bit of a visual learner to get stuff from them but it really is the best thing next to a real teacher. I recommend any from the series but especially: Gerardo Nuñez, Tomatito, Moraito, Chicuelo. They just play and show their music a little slow...you need to have the book to check the exact details. I can say, coming from another genre, it was very helpful in the beginning to see the right hand movements and pick up small details of rhythm from the MAESTROS, rather than attempt to learn note for note falsetas per say or go through those watered down method books.
Glue on the nails you will eventually need from simply practicing rasgueados. I have used glue on cuts of left hand finger tips to make it through a gig, but honestly, it just wears off after two songs.
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kiko_Roca
If no lessons, I would recommend that you get the Juan Martin "El Arte" book along with the Martinez offerings and work back and forth through them to get a more well-rounded experience.
Juan Martin's work actually looks really fantastic - I've just found his website which looks to have a significant number of resources available. It seems that El Arte is less commonly sourced in the US than some of his other work such as the first and second volumes of his book on flamenco listed here. Do you know if these two would draw heavily from and / or replace El Arte?
Also, thank you for the Youtube links.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
Just a few quick things...the traditional way to learn flamenco is to sit across from a teacher and pick it up by watching and listening. Although this is 'ridiculously difficult for a beginner' I suppose it can't hurt you to look this over:
When you are ready to play this tune, this will give you all the info you need. Best of luck to you-flamenco guitar is awesome.
Ah, very good to know - I can see how that would be the preferred method. As for the link to La Meiga, hah this was one of the first links I found on Foro Flamenco -- I've been trying to practice picado relative to what he is doing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
If you can't get proper one on one lessons, you will need to be able to understand rhythmic notation at least, and tablature. It's not too hard if you have an ear and a metronome. (Not a fancy flamenco one, just one that clicks). I would avoid most resources and go right for the maestro sources which are the Encuentro series of videos and books. You have to be a bit of a visual learner to get stuff from them but it really is the best thing next to a real teacher. I recommend any from the series but especially: Gerardo Nuñez, Tomatito, Moraito, Chicuelo. They just play and show their music a little slow...you need to have the book to check the exact details. I can say, coming from another genre, it was very helpful in the beginning to see the right hand movements and pick up small details of rhythm from the MAESTROS, rather than attempt to learn note for note falsetas per say or go through those watered down method books.
Do you happen to have a link for the Encuentro series which you're referring to? After reading many forum posts about it, many people seem to really swear by it, however I can't seem to find any links for it. I did find this site, however I'm not sure which (if any or all) of the books / videos are apart of the series you're referring to. If it is all that you are referring to, which would you start with?
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to Ricardo)
There are a few points of technique that are not particularly obvious, but which are necessary to progress beyond beginner status. Many are ways of avoiding tension in the hands that prevents fluency and speed. Others are flamenco techniques like rasgueado (complex patterns of strumming), the basic strokes of the right hand fingers and thumb, picado (rapid scales alternating the first two fingers of the right hand), alzapua (using the back of the thumbnali as well as the usual forward strokes), etc.
A good teacher can demonstrate these quickly, and can watch your playing and advise how to improve your performance. Otherwise, it could take decades, or maybe never to figure these out on your own.
You may be embarking on a very rewarding lifelong journey, and it pays to lay down a good foundation.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
quote:
After reading many forum posts about it, many people seem to really swear by it, however I can't seem to find any links for it. I did find this site, however I'm not sure which (if any or all) of the books / videos are apart of the series you're referring to. If it is all that you are referring to, which would you start with?
Yes down at the bottom and on next page of your link. I first got Riqueni's book and next Tomatito. I got more from the Tomatito but certain details were first exposed to my eyes thanks to the Riqueni's video. In hindsight I think I would recommend Nunz as he gives you a lot of useful stuff in the first technique's portion (a good hour of material), unlike the other players that simply demonstrate their personal compositions. But what I really recommend is that you get the one of the player that you are most familiar with that inspires you. It's very important to pick up details from an inspiring artist.
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JDH
Juan Martin's work actually looks really fantastic - I've just found his website which looks to have a significant number of resources available. It seems that El Arte is less commonly sourced in the US than some of his other work such as the first and second volumes of his book on flamenco listed here. Do you know if these two would draw heavily from and / or replace El Arte?
You can buy the "El Arte Flamenco de la Guitarra" on Martin's site still - it is probably the best instructional he offers. The two you link are just a collection of solos/falsettas and make no effort to teach anything - so they will probably not have much value for you. The videos that comes with them are also not high enough quality or positioned correctly to actually see what he is doing on the guitar.
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Flamenco Guitar, From Scratch (in reply to JDH)
Jeff,
I am in SoCal (San Diego) and have a very good teacher I can recommend but he is located down here. I started learning flamenco from him 2 years ago. He has spent a lot of time improving my technique which i don't think can be done without a teacher standing there watching you play. I still have a long way to go but feel I am on the right path. I think everybody here would like be able to play Le Meiga and make it sound good, but I think that is way above a beginner level. I bought the tab and tried it for awhile and decided I needed to save it until I get better. I spent a lot of time using the Juan Martin books and think they are a good place to start. Also my teacher has me doing a lot of exercises from Pumping Nylon which is great for improving technique. You are still young and have the time to become really good if you have the motivation. I did not discover flamenco until I was 58 years old so there is a limit how far I can go but I am still hungry to improve as much as possible. Good luck
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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